It could always be worse

I feel somewhat foolish now for my earlier uncharitable ribbing of our shepherds in the Church, and bad enough that I took it to confession yesterday (and I offer my apologies to any readers scandalized by my gratuitous insults of the Lord’s anointed). Our bishops may often be silly, foolish old men, but we’re lucky to have them, especially in light of the alternative.

Speaking of which, check out Dr. Charlton’s remarks on the new head of the Church of England, Archbishop of Cantebury Justin Welby, the “inexperienced mediocrity” who looks like a state-sponsored therapist of questionable sexuality and sounds like a terminally anxious employer being threatened with a hostile work environment suit, whose duplicitous waffling will surely doom a Church that is already in decline and probably cannot survive a long reign by another pallid platitude-peddler.

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23 thoughts on “It could always be worse

  1. The collapse of Anglo-Americanism is certainly a net positive since Anglo-Americanism has always been the greatest force for liberalism around the globe. As far as the Anglican church who really cares anymore? Maybe Bruce should form an “Anglo-Byzantine” fusionist “church” and then Bruce could just seize and blind church leaders he didn’t like. Byzantium being the highest form of Christian civilization ever.

    • In terms of “seizing,” how does one “seize” the use of a church? Does it belong to the diocese, the parish? Who controls it? Can it be seized for a “Anglo-Byzantine” ritual? I always wondered about the mechanics of doing something like that, in light of the constant divisions springing up in liberal Protestant churches.

  2. It’s amazing how attached Bruce is to that church. The rot is really obvious from afar. As someone else put it, whatever positive accomplishments of the church and its followers, it was from its inception just a pretense for the British elite to act as they wanted.

    • So St. Augustine of Canterbury was a puppet of the British elites? Or perhaps you are referring to the Celtic Britons whose Christianity pre-dated that of the Anglo-Saxons? You can hardly be referring to King Henry VIII, his parliament, or Thomas Cranmer because, however ignoble their motives might have been, they did not create a new Church, they removed the existing English Church from papal control.

      • This debate could go on for hours, but I will just add that they did a lot more than just that. They destroyed the convents and monasteries, the use of the Latin Mass, and many basic concepts of Christian morality and the afterlife (such as purgatory, the prohibition on divorce, etc). Speaking as a Catholic, they certainly changed things to an extreme degree even if they did not create a new church.

      • Henry VIII : monastic estates :: Philip the Fair : Templars. Why do sovereigns mess with the Church? Same reason they mess with the petty nobility and the merchants: because that’s where the money is.

      • So St. Augustine of Canterbury was a puppet of the British elites? Or perhaps you are referring to the Celtic Britons whose Christianity pre-dated that of the Anglo-Saxons?

        He is obviously talking about anglicanism only, so it has nothing to do with things which greatly predate it.

        You can hardly be referring to King Henry VIII, his parliament, or Thomas Cranmer because, however ignoble their motives might have been, they did not create a new Church, they removed the existing English Church from papal control.

        Why defend the Anglican church? It is not nearly Christian nowadays anyway, aren’t they that have gay bishops?

      • “Why defend the Anglican church? It is not nearly Christian nowadays”
        And the Roman Church is? Our local Roman parish hands out condoms. The last Vicar of Christ gave the Koran a big-ole smooch right in front of the whole world. Etc.

      • And the Roman Church is? Our local Roman parish hands out condoms. The last Vicar of Christ gave the Koran a big-ole smooch right in front of the whole world. Etc.

        I guess it depends where you live. I am brazilian, and in Brazil the RCC is probably 90% leftist, and that’s why I decided to join the Presbityrian Church instead when I became a Christian 5 years ago. There are some very conservative catholics, like the ones from this website http://ipco.org.br/home/ but nowadays they are a minority.

        The Presbityrian Church in Brazil is solidly conservative, in contrast to the now leftist one in USA, but it rarely cares about political issues. It just claims that the world is by nature evil and fallen so we should not care for the society as a whole, but instead focus on converting individuals. For a long time I thought this was a bad attitude, but now I see it might actually be the way to go. We don’t have power to unseat our evil marxist overlords anyway.

        I wonder how it will go next time I have a discussion with a liberal if I simply point out that he lost in sin, a slave of satan and going to hell instead of trying to show how the conservative arguments make logical sense… it might be a very interresting experience.

      • Proph,
        I was careless and unclear in my comment when I wrote “our.” I’m Continuuing Anglican.

        One of the fellows I carpool with tells me that his Roman Catholic parish (the only one in our town) hands out condoms. I don’t know what diocese it’s under. Whatever diocese covers Brevard County in East Central Florida.

      • Proph,
        Unfortunately ,whether or not the priest gets in trouble probably depends a lot on who the Bishop is. Remember the priest who was recently removed from his parish (in D.C. I think) for denying the boastful, unrepentant lesbian activist the Holy Eucharist at her mother’s funeral? Unbelievable! The priest actually acts as if he really believes the Churches’ teaching on Holy Communion and practices true Christian love and charity by not allowing her to eat and drink damnation on herself and the bishop removes him for it!

      • That particular situation was annoying indeed, but a little more complicated than superficial reports let on. Canon law permits a priest to deny communion only under very specific circumstances (the sin must be grave, public, manifest, and obstinate), and it’s not clear that the “obstinate” part, at least, was met according to the standards normally employed in the evaluation of these cases. That said, Fr. Guarnizo was clearly not a canonist and was acting in good faith, the dyke was clearly angling to get a priest in trouble, and it’s disgraceful that Card. Wuerl was so eager to oblige her.

        But it’s telling that we can say that this sort of thing goes against Catholic teaching. When a Catholic celebrates “gay weddings” or “ordains” women, etc., we can definitely and unambiguously say that they are bad Catholics. We could not necessarily say the same of Anglicans in identical situations.

      • I can’t say as I’m not part of the AC. We separated in the 1950’s and 1960’s. We look to the early, undivided Churches and those things clearly aren’t allowed by the early Church.

      • Proph, you have a good point there. It is not the same thing not living up to the standards that we hold to lowering the standards such that we can all feel good about ourselves.

      • For a long time I thought this was a bad attitude, but now I see it might actually be the way to go.

        I’m starting to get the same idea. I think we’re going to have to wake up and realize that we’re a relatively small minority in the American (and Western) population now. Even among white people, most don’t share our religious views. They believe in Jesus, but they don’t really care about Him. They don’t honor His Laws, they don’t worry about denying His Love, they don’t spend significant parts of their day meditating on His Word and struggling with His Teachings.

        I think recognizing that will help us get our own house in order. Perhaps we need to take this time to clean out and repair what is broken. Perhaps we need to focus on preparing ourselves for what is coming, rather than trying to stop the wreck we see ahead of us. Perhaps we need to wake up and see that our lives are going to totally suck for a while, but that it’s all part of Providence, and our eagerness to spare ourselves this fate shows a lack of trust in that Providence.

        Perhaps it’s time for a trial by fire. Maybe a bit of purgatory will do us all some good.

        Or maybe I’m just sinking into fatalism. I don’t know which.

    • Felipe,

      Yes, mainstream Presbyterianism in the US is liberal, but there are conservative/traditional Presbyterian denominations. Those that are members of either the North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council (NAPARC), or the International Conference of Reformed Churches (ICRC) (or both), are Bible-based churches with traditional teachings.

  3. This is a response to Alte’s comment at 1:52 AM on 11/14/12, but really it applies to the whole thread. Running errands this afternoon I was listening to Catholic Radio, and they were interviewing Barbara McWiggin (sp?) of Fighting the Good Fight (her own show on Catholic Radio). She recounted the story of how St. Monica prayed that her son Augustine would not venture forth into the fleshpots of Italy to teach, there to be forever lost to her efforts to convert him. Her prayers were denied; Augustine left. Her heart broke as he sailed away. But in Italy he heard St. Ambrose preach, and was converted. So Monica’s prayers were met in a way she could not have anticipated, and that, indeed, seemed like the bittermost rejection of her prayers.

    McWiggin suggested that what seems to us to be an imminent sojourn in a harsh, godless desert, and the end of all our hopes, might in fact turn out to be a necessary step in a journey toward the Provided Promised Land. We are entering a crisis. Like every crisis, it is (among other things) a crisis of faith. We ourselves may be persecuted, even unto death. But who can tell what seeds of glory our blood might nourish? Who can tell how many thousands might be inspired to turn to a different way of life, by the example of our simple fortitude?

    God, grant me a bit of wisdom and courage, for the facing of this hour.

    • Yes, I have spoken with others at church and we’re all slowly coming to this conclusion. It is quite heartening, actually. Once I realized that good could come of our persecution, I traded in my purely ornamental jewelry for my personal “kick me, I’m Catholic” sign (i.e. my crucifix).

  4. Apropos of Welby, I found the title of this story hilarious:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9667071/Justin-Welby-is-the-Alpha-male-tosave-the-Church-of-England.html

    “Justin Welby is the Alpha male to save the Church of England”

    Just look at the photo of Welby right below that statement. Does he look like an alpha male to you? If this creature is alpha, what must British beta males look like?

    But yet later in the story it is revealed that “Alpha” is some sort of “course of Christian instruction” in Britain… though what Welby has to do with this is not clear.

  5. @Proph,

    Canon law permits a priest to deny communion only under very specific circumstances (the sin must be grave, public, manifest, and obstinate), and it’s not clear that the “obstinate” part, at least, was met according to the standards normally employed in the evaluation of these cases.

    A boastful lesbian activist would seem to fit the description of “grave, public, manifest, and obstinate sinner” quite perfectly.

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