Comments on: Election or Faith

By: Kristor

Kristor — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 16:32:00 +0000

Well, in the Old Testament, the intertestamental literature, and in the ancient Near East generally, “sons of God” (bene elohim or ba’alim (bar’elim)) was a term that was used to refer to the gods, or angels, the members of the Divine Council. YHWH too was a son of God; what distinguished him from the other angels was the fact that he was not a creature, like them, but rather begotten of his father El, and thus coeternal with him. This was what made YHWH the King and God of the Sons of God.

The angels are created as angels, as gods. We are created men, and in Heaven, we will remain men, with the bodies of men. Our membership in the Divine Household will be as men, rather than angels. We’ll be divine beings, in rather the way that the Greek heroes and sacrificial victims (these two categories being largely coterminous) became demi-gods and took up their places in the firmament of Heaven. But we won’t stop being men.

We will indeed be ranked above the angels, not because we stop being men and become something different, but rather on account of the participation of our perfected human nature in the divine body of Jesus – a privilege not enjoyed by the angels. Thus it is our participation in the Church that effects our metamorphosis – a consideration that makes musty dusty Sunday Mass an altogether spooky experience, indeed terrifying, if you allow yourself to think about it.

Thus while there are certain aspects of the angelic mode of apprehension that might be available to us, we will still be temporal creatures. Logically, embodied beings cannot be otherwise, for they cannot do without a causal order (embodiment *just is* participation in a causal order).

But in any case, neither are the angels eternal beings. There is only one eternal being. Neither angels nor men can apprehend things sub specie aeternitatis.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2012 15:41:54 +0000

[...] of ourselves as being free, not being manipulated by a force outside ourselves. This is a difficult philosophical issue, so I will have to content myself with three basic [...]

By: brucecharlton

brucecharlton — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 13:11:24 +0000

@Kristor – “We will not in Heaven be able to achieve the divine perspective, or even the angelic perspective.”

I don’t think this is correct; at least it seems to be contradicted by what looks like conclusive (evangelical Calvinist) scriptural analysis I have heard from JI Packer and Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

In heaven, the Bible seems to teach that resurrected Man will be adopted as a Son of God, and thus above the Angels; and I assume this means a superior perspective to the Angels (whatever that might imply – I do not know)

http://charltonteaching.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/become-as-little-children-accept.html

http://charltonteaching.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-three-existential-problems-of-life.html

All this serves to underline the astonishing nature of the Christian promise and hope – the fact that Angels have (as Peter Kreeft emphasizes in his book about them) intelligence, strength and powers greater than any superhero of earthly imagination; yet resurrected and saved humans will be above them.

By: Alte

Alte — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 00:20:12 +0000

Oh, is that why? That makes sense. Interesting.

By: Alte

Alte — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 00:18:42 +0000

It has taken me my whole life to even understand what metaphysics is.

To be honest, if I contemplate it too deeply I get dizzy and nauseated. I think it throws my blood sugar off when I think that hard. LOL I’ll just stick to reading the articles. The level of abstraction is a bit overwhelming.

I teach catechism class and I can deal with that sort of concrete theology.

By: ChesterPoe

ChesterPoe — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 00:13:11 +0000

Philosophy, especially metaphysics, is a beautiful area of study if you can understand it. Being better at comprehension than the development of ideas I refer to the contributors here for information pertaining to the subject rather than write on it myself. So I understand the “sit here, in the back pew” sentiments.

Write on politics? Sure, no problem. Write on theology or metaphysics? What, do you want me to look like an idiot?

By: Kristor

Kristor — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 00:10:12 +0000

Yup. That’s about it. Don’t ever look directly at him, though. Even the seraphim are more prudent than to do that. That’s why we bow.

By: Alte

Alte — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 00:07:00 +0000

As a woman, I’m mostly preoccupied with more practical topics like homemaking and politics, and I don’t always understand what is written because a lot of it is over my head. But I do always feel like I’m learning something or being challenged in some way here, and I appreciate the high level of discourse.

I’ll just sit here, in the back pew, and hope for the occasional glimmer of comprehension.

By: Alte

Alte — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 23:53:32 +0000

Now I feel like my head is exploding. So we will be temporal but gazing at the eternal. The beatific vision?

By: Kristor

Kristor — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 23:23:06 +0000

But remember that even in Heaven you will still be a finite creature. To apprehend things sub specie aeternitatis, a being must be itself eternal; and there is only one such human. We will not in Heaven be able to achieve the divine perspective, or even the angelic perspective. We’ll still be men and women. So, we will be temporal, and Heaven will in that sense be like an everlasting party – specifically, a wedding banquet. That sounds like it could get old. Think of it instead, then, as an everlasting adventure, with numberless worlds to explore and no possibility of ever tiring. Want to master all the music of the Baroque? That can be on your to do list, without crowding out kayaking all the rivers in all the worlds. Want to ascend ever higher through the heavens of Heaven, to the central height? There’s no completing that flight. It just keeps getting more and more sublime. And at every level in every world of Heaven, informing and generating all their musics, there is one ceaseless equal music of eternity.

There it is, right now! Do you hear it?