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	<title>Comments on: A test-case for the tenacity of liberalism</title>
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	<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/</link>
	<description>Wherever an altar is found, there civilization exists - Joseph de Maistre</description>
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		<title>By: Anymouse</title>
		<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/#comment-10442</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anymouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 21:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthosphere.org/?p=2675#comment-10442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That is what those on the right must learn.

That is the central flaw of all the great institutions of our society: they are large, centralized, and are taken over by the left even if they were created by good and patriotic men.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is what those on the right must learn.</p>
<p>That is the central flaw of all the great institutions of our society: they are large, centralized, and are taken over by the left even if they were created by good and patriotic men.</p>
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		<title>By: Alte</title>
		<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/#comment-10440</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 21:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthosphere.org/?p=2675#comment-10440</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay, I&#039;m too young to know all of this by heart, but I did some research and it confirmed my stated opinion. The EU Fathers were: 

Winston Churchill (Great Britain)
Konrad Adenauer (Germany)
Joseph Bech (Luxembourg)
Johan Willem Beyen (Netherlands)
Alcide De Gasperi (Italy)
Jean Monnet (France)
Robert Schuman (France)
Paul-Henri Spaak (Belgium)

Adenauer, Schuman, and Gasperi were the main drivers of integration, and they were all devout Catholic, Christian Democrats (center-right) who railed against communism and fascism and trumpeted the free market. Schuman was so pious and personally virtuous that he might soon be canonized by the RCC. Adenauer and Gasperi both went to prison for opposing fascism.

These men were not integrating politics in order to promote leftist viewpoints, but as a vanguard against the encroach of the left from the east. And the entire 68er uprising that this blog so denounced was a backlash against Adenauer&#039;s conservatism. Those 68ers then toppled the conservative majority and reshaped the EU to suit their own purposes, so the conservatives are now in a coalition with the socialists in the EU parliament and commission. This is always the danger in building a centralized power: you won&#039;t necessarily retain control of it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I&#8217;m too young to know all of this by heart, but I did some research and it confirmed my stated opinion. The EU Fathers were: </p>
<p>Winston Churchill (Great Britain)<br />
Konrad Adenauer (Germany)<br />
Joseph Bech (Luxembourg)<br />
Johan Willem Beyen (Netherlands)<br />
Alcide De Gasperi (Italy)<br />
Jean Monnet (France)<br />
Robert Schuman (France)<br />
Paul-Henri Spaak (Belgium)</p>
<p>Adenauer, Schuman, and Gasperi were the main drivers of integration, and they were all devout Catholic, Christian Democrats (center-right) who railed against communism and fascism and trumpeted the free market. Schuman was so pious and personally virtuous that he might soon be canonized by the RCC. Adenauer and Gasperi both went to prison for opposing fascism.</p>
<p>These men were not integrating politics in order to promote leftist viewpoints, but as a vanguard against the encroach of the left from the east. And the entire 68er uprising that this blog so denounced was a backlash against Adenauer&#8217;s conservatism. Those 68ers then toppled the conservative majority and reshaped the EU to suit their own purposes, so the conservatives are now in a coalition with the socialists in the EU parliament and commission. This is always the danger in building a centralized power: you won&#8217;t necessarily retain control of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Alte</title>
		<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/#comment-10433</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 18:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthosphere.org/?p=2675#comment-10433</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;But it seems that there is no way to stop a federation instituted for limited ends from evolving into a union with unlimited power. Yield one iota of sovereignty, and in time you will have yielded it all.

I think these centralized systems necessarily grow more leftist over time&lt;/i&gt;

This is the crux of the problem, I think. This is why the balance between subsidiarity and solidarity tends to be so precarious.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But it seems that there is no way to stop a federation instituted for limited ends from evolving into a union with unlimited power. Yield one iota of sovereignty, and in time you will have yielded it all.</p>
<p>I think these centralized systems necessarily grow more leftist over time</i></p>
<p>This is the crux of the problem, I think. This is why the balance between subsidiarity and solidarity tends to be so precarious.</p>
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		<title>By: cantillonblog</title>
		<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/#comment-10428</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cantillonblog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 17:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthosphere.org/?p=2675#comment-10428</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The neuro-psychiatrist (and Fellow in Literature at All Souls) Iain McGilchrist has important insights about the relationship between modes of consciousness, culture, and institutions that impinge very directly on this question - in particular the run-away, delusional nature of institutions under modernity.  It&#039;s not especially easy to summarize his work (he is tremendously erudite, and it took him twenty years to write his book), but I commend BGC&#039;s writings on the topic.  (charlton teaching blog).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The neuro-psychiatrist (and Fellow in Literature at All Souls) Iain McGilchrist has important insights about the relationship between modes of consciousness, culture, and institutions that impinge very directly on this question &#8211; in particular the run-away, delusional nature of institutions under modernity.  It&#8217;s not especially easy to summarize his work (he is tremendously erudite, and it took him twenty years to write his book), but I commend BGC&#8217;s writings on the topic.  (charlton teaching blog).</p>
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		<title>By: JMSmith</title>
		<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/#comment-10423</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JMSmith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthosphere.org/?p=2675#comment-10423</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m willing to believe that many of the architects of the EU had the limited objective of preventing another European war through economic interdependence and a slight tempering of nationalism.  Likewise, I&#039;m willing to believe that many of the architects of the USA had the limited objective of uniting to keep European powers from meddling in the politics of the thirteen states.  But it seems that there is no way to stop a federation instituted for limited ends from evolving into a union with unlimited power.  Yield one iota of sovereignty, and in time you will have yielded it all.

I think these centralized systems necessarily grow more leftist over time because they are so very attractive to persons driven by a desire for equality.  People will never be equal until they are governed by the same laws and institutions, and so leftists are always drawn to centralized power that can ensure they are governed by the same laws and institutions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m willing to believe that many of the architects of the EU had the limited objective of preventing another European war through economic interdependence and a slight tempering of nationalism.  Likewise, I&#8217;m willing to believe that many of the architects of the USA had the limited objective of uniting to keep European powers from meddling in the politics of the thirteen states.  But it seems that there is no way to stop a federation instituted for limited ends from evolving into a union with unlimited power.  Yield one iota of sovereignty, and in time you will have yielded it all.</p>
<p>I think these centralized systems necessarily grow more leftist over time because they are so very attractive to persons driven by a desire for equality.  People will never be equal until they are governed by the same laws and institutions, and so leftists are always drawn to centralized power that can ensure they are governed by the same laws and institutions.</p>
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		<title>By: Alte</title>
		<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/#comment-10418</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthosphere.org/?p=2675#comment-10418</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Again, the &quot;tyranny&quot; is driven by American politics. All over the world, countries are creating regional super-states to counter the Ami-Effect. Being the world&#039;s policeman sounds noble, at first, until you face the possibility that your own country might end up being policed. And since it&#039;s the dollar that allows Americans to trounce on the entire planet, any counterweight must be economic in focus.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, the &#8220;tyranny&#8221; is driven by American politics. All over the world, countries are creating regional super-states to counter the Ami-Effect. Being the world&#8217;s policeman sounds noble, at first, until you face the possibility that your own country might end up being policed. And since it&#8217;s the dollar that allows Americans to trounce on the entire planet, any counterweight must be economic in focus.</p>
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		<title>By: Alte</title>
		<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/#comment-10417</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthosphere.org/?p=2675#comment-10417</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[European integration is seen as inevitable now, even more so now that the Americans have become so aggressively international and the dollar has become so highly manipulated and devalued.

The EU is seen as a political counter-weight to the US. That is not ideological, but realpolitik.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>European integration is seen as inevitable now, even more so now that the Americans have become so aggressively international and the dollar has become so highly manipulated and devalued.</p>
<p>The EU is seen as a political counter-weight to the US. That is not ideological, but realpolitik.</p>
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		<title>By: Alte</title>
		<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/#comment-10416</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthosphere.org/?p=2675#comment-10416</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Aargh, I&#039;m still not expressing myself clearly. What I mean is that leftism offers an alternative &quot;culture&quot; to the traditional regional ones, so the more centralized a state becomes, the more leftist it will lean, in an attempt to replace the disparities between the groups with In-du-viduals who are all mindless drones wallowing in decadence. 

Bread and circuses is the natural result of centralization, as you have to destroy the local culture to create coherence between the cultures, and then you have to placate them with alternatives. I&#039;m not going to fault the Fathers of the EU with all being godless leftists, but rather with being naive about what their project would result in. They thought they could grow their own local bread and eat it, too. Adenauer would have been horrified by the current state of things, and it is uncharitable to suggest otherwise about such a pious man.

When I was growing up in Germany, none of us understood what was awaiting us. We were all terribly naive. We thought the people would always have babies. We&#039;re still trying to get our heads around our own demographic death, as we saw it coming but sat in stunned denial for years before we could even speak about.

But we were definitely NOT leftists.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aargh, I&#8217;m still not expressing myself clearly. What I mean is that leftism offers an alternative &#8220;culture&#8221; to the traditional regional ones, so the more centralized a state becomes, the more leftist it will lean, in an attempt to replace the disparities between the groups with In-du-viduals who are all mindless drones wallowing in decadence. </p>
<p>Bread and circuses is the natural result of centralization, as you have to destroy the local culture to create coherence between the cultures, and then you have to placate them with alternatives. I&#8217;m not going to fault the Fathers of the EU with all being godless leftists, but rather with being naive about what their project would result in. They thought they could grow their own local bread and eat it, too. Adenauer would have been horrified by the current state of things, and it is uncharitable to suggest otherwise about such a pious man.</p>
<p>When I was growing up in Germany, none of us understood what was awaiting us. We were all terribly naive. We thought the people would always have babies. We&#8217;re still trying to get our heads around our own demographic death, as we saw it coming but sat in stunned denial for years before we could even speak about.</p>
<p>But we were definitely NOT leftists.</p>
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		<title>By: Alte</title>
		<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/#comment-10414</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthosphere.org/?p=2675#comment-10414</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For the record, I don&#039;t really care about the euro. We can always go back to the DM and focus on high value-added production. I&#039;ve even still got some left over. It was so much prettier-looking than the bland euros.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, I don&#8217;t really care about the euro. We can always go back to the DM and focus on high value-added production. I&#8217;ve even still got some left over. It was so much prettier-looking than the bland euros.</p>
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		<title>By: Alte</title>
		<link>http://orthosphere.org/2012/12/10/a-test-case-for-the-tenacity-of-liberalism/#comment-10413</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alte]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthosphere.org/?p=2675#comment-10413</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I question how useful the European Monetary Union will be as a test case for liberalism&lt;/i&gt;

I also wonder about that. I don&#039;t know why the EU in general is seen as a product of leftism anyway, as one of its main proponents was Konrad Adenauer, who saw it as a bulwark against communism and secularism.

The problem with the EU is not that it is too left/liberal, but that it is too centralized and therefore destroys regional cultures and disenfranchises the citizens of the individual states. Like with the US federal government. The fact that leftists are adept at co-opting any centralized government does not mean that the centralization was driven by them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I question how useful the European Monetary Union will be as a test case for liberalism</i></p>
<p>I also wonder about that. I don&#8217;t know why the EU in general is seen as a product of leftism anyway, as one of its main proponents was Konrad Adenauer, who saw it as a bulwark against communism and secularism.</p>
<p>The problem with the EU is not that it is too left/liberal, but that it is too centralized and therefore destroys regional cultures and disenfranchises the citizens of the individual states. Like with the US federal government. The fact that leftists are adept at co-opting any centralized government does not mean that the centralization was driven by them.</p>
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