A message for nice guys

I

Meet the late Elliot Rodger, 22-year-old serial murderer and self-proclaimed “supreme gentleman,” who blamed his killing spree on his inability to attract a lover.

There’s a lot that can be said about Mr. Rodger from a sociological perspective — from whence his narcissism, his self-entitlement, his will-to-power? — but regular readers of the Orthosphere could likely anticipate such an analysis or produce a better one on their own, so I don’t feel the need to write one. Instead, this post is aimed at those in a similar situation as his (on the off-chance that any might read it), those who have ever asked themselves, “I’m a nice guy; why can’t I get a girlfriend?”

If you have ever uttered these words, you are almost certainly a beta male.

II

By “beta,” I mean not-alpha, i.e., not the first. The beta male is no woman’s first choice.

What is it that makes a beta male “beta”? Depending on how broadly we elect to define the term, we could include in that definition a general lack of self-confidence, of physical fitness, of social skills; a disregard for the quality of his personal appearance; emotional incontinence; a certain cloying eagerness in his interactions with women that usually spoil his own chances of romantic success. Although usually of above-average intelligence, he often cannot transcend the intellectual fashions of his age, and he typically squanders whatever intellectual gifts he has on frivolous pursuits taken to obsessive extremes.

Note the keywords above: “lack”; “disregard”; “inability”; “squanders”; etc. These traits are not properly positive in themselves, they are negatives. They are deficiencies and privations of properly masculine traits, traits like self-mastery, self-confidence, stoicism, and goal-directedness.

So “beta maledom” is really nothing more than the gaping hole where masculinity ought to be, and to be a “beta male” is simply to be deficient as a man.

III

Revisit that first question: “I’m a nice guy; why can’t I get a girlfriend?”

You cannot get a girlfriend because you are not especially manly.

Most women do not especially want a “nice guy”; certainly I have never heard one say that she wanted one. They want a man. Most women who want a man want one who is good to them (and, note, “good” and “nice” overlap but are not interchangeable), but in no case is it desired that manliness be sacrificed in the service of niceness.

You see, “niceness” is not a theological virtue. It’s a basic, minimum requirement for normal, human social functioning in most circumstances. Since it is so basic to social functioning, women can get niceness literally anywhere. They can get it from parents, siblings, friends, mail carriers, waiters, and so on. Hence, they don’t need it, exclusively or even primarily, from you. What they need from you (if they need anything from you at all) is masculinity, to complement their femininity. This isn’t an earth-shattering insight: man and woman are literally made for one another, after all. If “niceness” is all you offer — if you have no masculinity to offer — than you are not attractive as a man. You might still be attractive in other ways — as a friend, a confidante, a study partner, a convenient chair, or a free-of-charge toenail painting service — but not as a partner or a lover. “Nice” is cheap, and she can probably get it better from somewhere else.

In the second place, you are probably not an especially nice person, either, so in fact you probably have nothing to offer at all. Certainly, Elliot Rodger is not a nice person nor the “supreme gentleman” he imagines himself to be. Nice people don’t feel entitled to sexual or romantic validation by virtue of their niceness. They certainly don’t murder people.

If you really want to be a nice person, I suggest doing something uncontaminated by self-interest. I’m sure there is a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter nearby in need of volunteers. If you volunteer, do it without telling any of your friends about it.

“But then how will my crush know that I’m nice?”

Maybe she won’t. But that’s the point: it’s not about you.

IV

Why are you this way? There are lots of possible reasons, beginning, in the first place, with a lack of effective modeling of healthy masculinity, both in society at large (where masculinity is demonized) and at home. Maybe your dad died, or was divorced by your mother (maybe for frivolous reasons, maybe not), or ran off to shack up with someone else, or was too mired in work or drugs or gambling, to mold you into a man. Maybe there were no uncles, cousins, or neighbors to fill the hole he left.

Maybe other forces shaped you for evil even as your father failed to shape you for good. Maybe your overbearing helicopter mother taught you always to defer to (“respect”) women. Maybe your kindergarten teacher gave you a severe scolding and a lecture on chivalry when you brazenly stole a kiss from the cute girl at recess. Maybe a few dozen romantic comedies and pop hits convinced you that emotive fawning is the way to get the girl. Maybe lectures on feminism from media talking heads, public school teachers and college professors, and other opinion leaders convinced you that men are oppressors who must publicly grovel as penance for their collective sins against the living sacrament that is womankind.

All of these are permutations of the same theme: there is a father-shaped chasm in your heart, and the story of your life is your struggle either to fill it in or fence it off.

 V

“It’s not about you” should hardly need to be said, but it does need to be said, because you don’t get it, because you think you’re the hero, the “good guy,” the star of the unfolding drama of your life, and by extension you think that everyone else is supporting cast, extras, tech crew. You are following a script (but who gave you the script? who wrote it? who else follows it?), and you think if you follow it faithfully, you’ll get the girl in the end. Hence your experience of romantic failure as a cosmic injustice, a “crime,” to quote the murderer Mr. Rodger. “Every time I try to care about someone, this is what I get.”

But other people aren’t extras and supporting casts. They are people, and their lives have a reality beyond your own. You have no right to resent them for failing to follow the script for a part they didn’t want and didn’t audition for. If you understood that, you might not be such a repulsive creep.

All of this is simply to say that your problem is you. You are unattractive and weird. And you are not so special or important that you don’t need to change, or that the world would be worse off if you did.

VI

“But other people should accept me the way that I am!”

Why should they? You won’t extend them the same courtesy. You won’t accept women’s romantic standards and expectations, especially when those standards don’t benefit you. What is so profoundly important about you that the whole world must deform itself to accommodate you?

“But I’m a nice guy–”

Stop it. No, you aren’t.

VII

You know something is wrong, you know something needs to change, hence the question: “I’m a nice guy; why can’t I get a girlfriend?” You have two choices.

In the first place, you can retreat into escapism, into fantasies of vengeance or sexual fulfillment. You may throw yourself into video games, comic books, cartoons, or pornography, or some combination thereof. You may regress into the security of childhood: “marrying” your pillow, taking stuffed animals out to dinner (in public!), dressing up as a magical pony or a figure from a favored video game (and not just on Halloween), or Photoshopping people into your pictures and publicly advertising them as your girlfriend. You may, in other words, withdraw from a reality with which you are no longer able to cope on its own terms. There’s a word for this in psychology, and that word is psychosis. Best case scenario, you wither like a shaded plant and die joyless and unfulfilled and probably obese in the cocoon in which you’ve wrapped yourself. Worst case scenario, you wind up like Mr. Rodger.

The other, better choice is to examine and reevaluate your life. You might consider the choices you’ve made that have made your life what it is. You might stop shouting your excuses into the void and shut up for a change and listen in silence to what others have to say, however difficult the lesson might be. You might come to realize that people don’t owe you much of anything, certainly not sex or love or acknowledgment. You might accept that you are not so special that you are the first man in history that didn’t need to work on improving himself.

And then, you might change. You might give up the obsessions you can’t restrain (note: there’s nothing wrong with video games or comic books as a hobby; there’s something wrong with doing nothing but playing video games or reading comic books). You might stop going to brony conventions or Magic: The Gathering tournaments. You might extract yourself from the social circles of people mired in this same condition. You might try to learn something from history, instead of standing in judgment of it. You might work out, start playing basketball, take classes, learn French, read Aristotle, master the piano. Volunteer at that soup kitchen or homeless shelter. Invite a coworker to lunch, just to get to know them. You might try to understand that everything isn’t about you. We have a word for all this, too, but it comes from a place much older and deeper than psychology. That word is repentance.

VIII

“Why are you so mean to ‘beta males’?”

I’m just giving you the honesty you demand other people show you, especially of women who reject you. And the honest truth is that you can’t get a girlfriend because you are repulsive to women.

“But why do you care?”

Because your unmanly behavior debases the common understanding of what it means to be a man. Because endorsement of it would force me to subscribe to an impoverished notion of my own masculinity. Because I don’t want my future sons to grow up in a world where they can wind up like you just because no one ever told them to knock off the crap and grow up.

“Why can’t you just leave me alone?”

Because you’re a social animal, and your good is bound up with the good of others, whether you like it or not. Because you don’t even want to be left alone, which is why you harass women on Facebook, etc.

“But why should I have to be ‘manly’ to get a girl?”

Because you are a man.

“But I didn’t ask to be a man!”

But you are a man. So deal with it.

“Masculinity’s just a social construct!”

So are skyscrapers; that doesn’t mean they aren’t real.

“You’re a jerk!”

A little, yeah. But I have a girlfriend.

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156 thoughts on “A message for nice guys

      • Christopher Lasch’s 1979 classic Culture of Narcissism is one of most compelling guides to many pathologies found in modern life.

      • Hah, I knew it. I could smell TLP’s influence all over this (excellent) post.

        For me, it’s the difference between being “nice” and being “good”. Heck, even Our Lord wasn’t “nice”. At least that’s not the impression He leaves in the Gospels.

    • Theology of the Body may have helped him some. I know plenty of heroic men, clergy and lay alike, who are living holy lives of celibacy.

      • Celibacy is a vocation, clearly it wasn’t his.

        His problem was not coping with celibacy but on how to find a girlfriend. Facepalm.

      • Celibacy is a vocation, clearly it wasn’t his.

        Do you believe that a guy like Eliot displaying the severe mental illness to the extent he did would have really changed if a girl deigned to date/marry him?

    • Yes, I agree, although he seems to have been familiar with game etc. and rejected it.

      Really, his problem was that he was a sad little twig of a man. So the solution is for him to stop being a sad little twig of a man. If he’d stopped being a sad little twig of a man, his problems with women would’ve sorted themselves out.

      • How exactly would he do that?

        From what I’ve read the dude probably had severe mental illnesses. Being from a broken home as well as some unattractive half breed Asian male didn’t help much either.

        People act like anyone could just “be a man” and get a girlfriend if they really wanted. However, all the evidence I’ve seen shows that the bottom X% of men on the genetic totem poll really don’t have a shot. Evolution wasn’t designed so that we all passed on our genes. Some men are born “mistakes” with little they can do to change that.

        Some normal dude who was slacking off goes to the gym and gets a better job and now he has a girlfriend, and we go ahead and assume that any little piece of genetic trash could do the same. Maybe they can’t. Maybe this dude was screwed from the start.

        The theory of evolution posits that X% of men will be incels. What exactly is being offered to them?

      • From what I’ve read the dude probably had severe mental illnesses. Being from a broken home as well as some unattractive half breed Asian male didn’t help much either.

        I’ve just finished reading his piece. The guy clearly had reactive depression. But his problems stemmed more from his values rather than any formal thought disorder. If you go through his manifesto and replace the term sex with money you’ve pretty much got a militant socialist manifesto. He wasn’t disconnected from a reality like a schizophrenic.

        He clearly had to have the best of everything, including the hottest babes. I didn’t see him complaining about not getting access to the fat chicks, he probably would have spurned them.

        He wasn’t a born mistake, he just made mistakes. Game (and a big brother who would have shoved it down his throat) would have saved him. And others.

      • He was clearly aware of and rejected game. I’m not sure why we believe every skinny social retard is just a few Mystery tricks away from sex.

        Nevertheless, your dodging the question. Simple genetics tells us huge swaths of men didn’t reproduce in the past when “men were men”. Some people are born incel.

      • Yes, how, I agree that some (probably small) proportion of men will never be fit for romantic involvement with a woman regardless of any course of action they could reasonably be expected to take. That’s always been true, I think, and it’s a testament to the crumminess of modern society that we have no way of dealing with those men (in previous ages they might’ve found a meaningful and well-ordered life in, say, a monastery).

        I don’t know if Elliot Rodger was such a hopeless case or not but in any event this post was directed toward those who are not hopeless cases, i.e., those who have it in their power to change for the better.

      • @Svar

        Sex and money are apples and oranges.

        Yeah, they are. But let’s look at the “framework” which support his thoughts and “logic”.

        He demands a right to x.
        It is an “injustice” that he cannot get x.
        All his problems stem from the fact that he cannot get x.
        There is something wrong with the world or system because he cannot get x.
        Therefore he must destroy that system.

        If x= sex you get Roger Elliot’s manifesto
        If x=money you get the communist one.

        Rogers wants to slit the throats of the bitchez, the commies want to slit the throat of capitalists.

        Different variables same underlying logic.

        Roger Elliot was a product of left wing culture.

      • Lots of right-wingers or people who would now be considered to be right-wing supported socialism or at the very least a sense of responsibility towards the working poor and helping out the little man like Jack London, Huey Long, Father Coughlin, Teddy Roosevelt, Benjamin Disraeli, the Canadian Red Tories, and the old Australian Labour Party. People need money for basic necessities like food, clean water, clothing, healthcare and shelter. Sex is not a necessity and no one will ever die from not having it.

        I do agree that he was heavily influenced by leftist ideas and a modernist sense of entitlement.

      • @Svar

        Sex is not a necessity and no one will ever die from not having it.

        True. The point, however, is that the “entitlement mentality” was the lens through which Elliot Roger saw the world. It’s a mentality which so many have. Saying Elliot was mad ignores the fact that his thought process was very similar to that of the socialists. Saying he is evil makes far more sense.

        It’s one thing to justify giving to the poor, it’s another to justify stealing from the rich.

    • Yes, it would. There is nothing to disagree with in Roissy’s post on what advice he would have given Rodgers.

  1. Reblogged this on oogenhand and commented:
    “learn French”
    Very good advice. Develop useful skills. If you want to RULE as a Sperglord, take a more challenging language like Albanian or Chechen.

      • > What did the post have to do with Catholicism?

        Proph is Catholic, right? Every recent post I have seen here by Catholics is in perfect agreement with modern liberal culture. In this case, ridiculing “nice guys”. Catholicism is just another version of intolerant immoral modern culture. But I still do admire Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

        Now I will dissect the pathetic post.

        The terms alpha, beta, etc. have nothing to do with how a man is judged by women. These terms reflect how a man is judged by other men. In the case of Elliot Rodger, his status among men wasn’t so high. But most guys who he saw with women weren’t alpha-males either. So this had nothing to do with his failure to attract women. My dating experience in college was similar to Elliot Rodger’s and I had many male friends.

        What makes men successful with women? That is a long story, but to put it simply, in an immoral promiscuous country women are attracted to the most morally and intellectually degenerate men. Virtually any man of high morals and and high intelligence will be considered repulsive by American women. I have seen this not only my case, but in the case of many other men. It is obvious to me that most Catholic men have neither high intelligence nor high morals, so it is no surprise that they can attract American women.

        Proph’s statement that “You cannot get a girlfriend because you are not especially manly” is so absurd that it is hard to respond. In degenerate America, many women are attracted to feminine men. I mean look at Justin Bieber. Elliot Rodger seems about average for modern men his age. In my case, I was into sports and played rugby for fun. Most of my friends were jocks and I worked out with them regularly. No one has ever considered me feminine. None of this made me appealing to American women.

        Of course masculinity isn’t so easy to define. Most modern people think acting like an arrogant jerk is masculinity. The kind of quiet considerate masculinity typified my John Wayne has largely been forgotten in our disgusting culture.

        I read Elliot Rodger’s story. He was obviously highly intelligent and a good writer. His story reminded me very much of my college years. I feel sorry for him and for his Chinese victims. I couldn’t care less about his American victims since I value Americans about as much as cockroaches.

        Luckily my story has a happy ending. I didn’t follow either of Proph’s two choices. I left sick America where I couldn’t get a date and went to Mexico where I met my wife. She happened to be a model in Mexico. We have been happily married for 23 years.

      • Franklin, if this post does not describe your case, then it was not meant to describe your case.

        I deleted your last paragraph. You’re welcome to stop reading the Orthosphere if you find it such a chore, but you’re not welcome to speak in such a manner about its authors. You’re a guest here, remember.

      • “That is a long story, but to put it simply, in an immoral promiscuous country women are attracted to the most morally and intellectually degenerate men. Virtually any man of high morals and and high intelligence will be considered repulsive by American women.”

        This is patently ridiculous, but men like to claim this on the internet, so it must be true.

        Women naturally find men possessing the masculine virtues attractive. It is merely that such men are now exceedingly rare and women will settle for the affectation in lieu of a void. Women will prefer a truly masculine man to a macho one, but a macho man to an androgynous one. At least the macho one is pretending to be masculine. The androgynous one can’t even be bothered to make that little effort.

      • All other things being equal, of course. I mean to say that virtue and intelligence are not turn-offs by themselves, just as degeneracy and idiocy are not turn-ons.

      • For me it’s really funny how he was obsessed with getting dates in his american college world. Out of that world he would have a lot of success with women. He is white-american and his father has loads of cash, so I predict he would be very popular getting a wife in latin america / asia. If he didn’t want to move I bet he could find one in california anyway.

        The school/university world is a very degenerate one, and indeed in my school also the more of a brainless jerk a guy was, the highest was his success with woman. But outside that world … well, that kind of insanity dies out. Practical questions come first.

        At the very least, there are loads of poor women seeking a wealthy man …

        Luckily my story has a happy ending. I didn’t follow either of Proph’s two choices. I left sick America where I couldn’t get a date and went to Mexico where I met my wife.

        Yes, that’s an even more successful version of what I said above. But I guess for a desperate like the shooter, any poor woman would be sufficient. He surely wouldn’t be able to handle a model.

        That is a long story, but to put it simply, in an immoral promiscuous country women are attracted to the most morally and intellectually degenerate men. Virtually any man of high
        morals and and high intelligence will be considered repulsive by American women.

        This is patently ridiculous, but men like to claim this on the internet, so it must be true.

        Well, in my middle class school it was like that.

    • Your post had merit until this line

      ” I couldn’t care less about his American victims since I value Americans about as much as cockroaches.”

      I followed your name to links on Scripturism, including a good article on charity. How can you say something so uncharitable here and so at odds with what you’ve written on your site?

    • I should add that there’s hardly anything “Catholic” about this post except possibly the injunction to serve the poor.

      Franklin – if you haven’t jumped ship yet – know that this post draws more from The Last Psychiatrist than the Gospel, and the PUA terminology is not something most Catholics I know would be eager to co-opt. You’re free to criticize it, but don’t make Proph’s analysis of Elliot Rodger representative of the Catholic Church.

  2. Pingback: A message for nice guys | Reaction Times

  3. Most nice guys actually are pretty nice, let us not gaslight them any more than our ‘culture’ already does. A lot of nice guys do come from religious homes where the parents, in a well paced effort to keep them clean, overdo the whole sex thing and beat them over the head with the evils of it until the poor guys are gibbering wrecks. Let’s not blame the victims with word-play excuses. Nice guys are nice, and often smart and useful, let’s help them. In saner times parents would give their daughters to proper suitors, that worked out better than 2014 America.

    • Maybe I should’ve put nice guys in quotation marks to emphasize that I’m speaking of a particular breed of (usually self-described) “nice guys.”

      I appreciate that there are plenty of guys who are nice and not especially outgoing and often have religious backgrounds, as you say. Those are not especially the guys I’m thinking of.

      • Sorry for any misunderstanding. I am not trying to play devil’s advocate. It’s just that I am not really into blaming these victims of a leaderless crap society like this one. These guys are smart and useful, much moreso than most of us muscular/handsome types (yes, I mean me and it is true), since they are smart, useful and polite, and have been tormented by the filth of 2014 America, I prefer not to add to the pig pile in the alt-right/reaction/neoreaction/red pill/whatever we are sector. Let’s end the gaslighting and start gaslighting those who deserve it more.

        I feel bad that my first comment on this blog is not a congratulatory one! I’ve been reading it and loving it for so long.

      • Oh, no need to apologize!

        I don’t mean to pile onto them either. I’m not simply mocking/bullying/harassing/whatever. I’m trying to get them to see that the problem is one that it is within their power to solve.

        (Not that any will read this, I suspect the regulars of the Orthosphere crowd are largely coupled/married already).

      • Henry:

        You raise a good point about the true “nice guys” who are smart, useful and polite.

        Those men have a good foundation. The difference between them and lost causes like Elliot Rodger is that the former have good raw material to work with, and they can see and understand reality once you show it to them. Once you start pointing things out to them, they can learn and change.

        What’s going on with the men you’re talking about — smart, useful, polite men — is that they tend to be TOO polite and TOO deferential, to the detriment of their own self interests. They need to be just a bit more self interested, a bit more “selfist”, a bit less obsequious to the women around them. They need to serve themselves a little more and the world a little less. They need to calibrate themselves a bit more toward what they want and need, is all. They also tend to have interests that draw them into themselves instead of outward to others. They need to calibrate that as well. They need to learn to cut toxic people out of their lives; and recognize it when a woman or women just aren’t interested.

  4. I think this article misses something important.

    “Most women who want a man want one who is good to them”

    “What they need from you […] is masculinity”

    The first statement suggests that given the choice between good and evil, most women choose what is good. I don’t think that’s true, especially in the modern world.

    I agree with the second statement. Masculinity is what women need. But is it what they desire? I’m not sure.

    Being a disciple of René Girard, I think women desire “metaphysical superiority”. They are craving for men who appear “metaphysically superior,” or god-like. I tend to think that, today, sexual desire amounts to idolatry. And that’s true in both ways: women were clearly idols to Elliot Rodger.

    In conclusion I doubt that being good and masculine is as efficient to trigger desire from women as the author thinks.

    • Welcome to the blog, Kolia.

      The first statement suggests that given the choice between good and evil, most women choose what is good. I don’t think that’s true, especially in the modern world.

      Well, notice I said “good to them,” not necessarily “good to everyone” or “good, full stop.”

      In conclusion I doubt that being good and masculine is as efficient to trigger desire from women as the author thinks.

      No, it sometimes isn’t. And I leave out the fact that the likes of Elliot Rodger are pursuing the wrong women to begin with. My point isn’t that if the average beta males gets his life sorted out, his women problems will likewise be sorted; it’s that his women problems cannot possibly be sorted out until his life is.

      • Thank you!

        I’ve seen what you’ve written below :

        “If you follow my advice here, you will (probably) not ever be attractive to the vast majority of women. But you (probably) won’t be anyway — and do you really want to be?”

        Now I agree with you. A good masculine man is attractive to the small minority of good women and only to them. But as you say, that’s the only kind of women a man should want to attract anyway.

    • @Kolia

      Great comment, I too like Rene Girard. In short, women don’t really appreciate being treated well and are not necessarily concerned with masculinity- not for a long period of time anyway. I think you are right about the “metaphysical superiority,” but that is a tall order. Probably most men can achieve that, but not forever and all days. It is tiring to have to be that which commands her attraction forever and provide at the same time. Especially when one considers that women don’t last long physically. I’m in my mid-30s and already women I know my own age are pretty shabby-looking, meanwhile I have consistently improved in appearance, shape, strength, conditioning, muscularity, you name it. Why should I go out of my way to appear ‘godlike’ to them. Sorry to look at this in a cold, materialistic way, but that is how women are looking at it themselves. This Rodger kid probably was as good as he says, but good is bad and bad is good.

      • First I should precise that most modern men also desire metaphysical superiority in women.

        According to Girard’s theory, all our possession desires are metaphysical (i.e. we believe that possessing an object will turn us into a superior divine being, we desire being a god and thus we desire the object). That works with cars, jobs, watches, clothes, women and men, etc.

        The reason we are slaves to metaphysical desire is that we have rejected the only true God, because of pride. But our mortal condition is unbearable without transcendence. The only way to reconcile this fact with our refusal to accept the reign of God on our lives is to become gods ourselves. The evil metaphysical desire is a symptom of the sickness called atheism.

        Hence, no sane man should try to be godlike in order to attract women. Instead he should submit to God and look for a woman who does the same. Christian men and women don’t need their partner to be a god because they have a relationship with God.

  5. Interesting post, Proph.

    You might be interested in a post on Deep Strength’s blog:

    Christian masculinity, the nice guy, and neediness

    He has written a lot about masculinity, especially about how it’s not “niceness” but rather “goodness”. Or something like that.

    Anyway, we had a 500-comment discussion on a similar topic awhile back on my old blog:

    How do we stop penalizing masculinity and creating foppish men?

    From Proph’s OP:

    I’m just giving you the honesty you demand other people show you, especially of women who reject you. And the honest truth is that you can’t get a girlfriend because you are repulsive to women.

    Yes, I can agree with that. The other side of that coin is women who have artificially high opinions about their own attractiveness and reject normal men.

    • The other side of that coin is women who have artificially high opinions about their own attractiveness and reject normal men.

      Yes, that’s a real problem, too. But I’ll leave it up to women to write those posts admonishing other women. ;-) Thanks for the links by the way, I’ll be sure to check them out.

      • Criticizing women is a good way to get pictures of your kids and spouse circulated on the internet until someone gets fired.

      • Criticizing women is a good way to get pictures of your kids and spouse circulated on the internet until someone gets fired.

        ???? I lost you there. I bet you are referring to a real event, but I have no idea which one. Links?

    • I’m basically 100% in agreement with the Deep Strength blog, in particular the “don’t change for a woman” advice. If a man is going to attract a woman, he needs to have something to offer her, and he needs to offer it honestly and fearlessly. That’s my point here.

      A lot of the objections so far have basically amounted to “but there are few women who deserve a real man.” I think that’s true. But that’s a different issue. If you follow my advice here, you will (probably) not ever be attractive to the vast majority of women. But you (probably) won’t be anyway — and do you really want to be? And you certainly cannot get any of the few good women until you get your life in order.

  6. @ Franklin: Could you be a bit more specific in your criticism of Proph’s post? Just saying it is “pathetic” isn’t giving anyone insight into what might be wrong with his line of thinking here. Thanks!

  7. There’s another possibility. Some beta man or other can’t get a girlfriend because God doesn’t want him to marry.

    • Then, of course, there is the other more obvious explanation. He can’t attract women because he has a privation of his being. Namely, he lacks the quality of sexual attractiveness.

      • True enough, slumlord. But some women know how to look beyond an unattractive face to see the much, much more important inner beauty. Years ago, before I vowed to be a lifelong virgin, I told an acquaintance of mine, that I thought my Cerebral Palsy would make me look ugly to women. “You don’t give us much credit, do you?” she replied. She was right. I didn’t do that. Another woman, the only one who made a pass at me, said something like this, “There’s a guy at the gym. I’ve had my eye on him for months, and you know him very well.” Since I didn’t know she meant me, she asked me whether I needed to get hit in the head with a brick, Of course I don’t. Unfortunately, however, around here, nobody swings sledge hammers. :)

      • @Bill

        The whole point of knowledge gained through game is that women can see other beauty besides physical attractiveness. It’s cultivating those other aspects that matters.

        Elliot wasn’t physcially unattractive, rather, he seems to have had personality issues which women found off-putting. I’m not saying that looks don’t matter but many men, trying to explain their lack of success with women, zero in on this one thing. The fact is that charisma and grit matter a hell of a lot more.

        Look at Oscar Pistorius. No legs, but still snared an incredibly hot babe.

        I know it’s hard for guys who’ve got physical disabilities. I have no illusions about this, but most women past the age of 25 don’t just simply look at a man at physical level only. Sometimes the strength of character that overcomes a disability makes a man desirable.

        Peace.

      • Personality, charm, etc are genetic too. Just as some people are born physically ugly many are born with ugly personalities too. A pretty unattractive half breed Asian kid with psychological problems from a broken home. How many of those guys do you see end up well?

  8. Excellent observations on the nature of masculinity.
    Nice guy? No, maladaptive guy, that’s all.
    What sane woman wants any part of that?

    Niceness is good, but there is a time and a place for everything.
    Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.
    Note this example of horsey masculinity.

    Elliot Rodger’s father should have broken his neck.

    • Yes, he was a genetic dead-end. his father should have killed him. Remember guys, be cruel.

      Amen, praise Jesus.

      • No, I’m afraid we’re not importing them from anywhere; there’s always been a small contingent of wackadoodles here and I don’t think there are any more than usual crawling around under this particular rock.

      • On a more serious note, I think it’s dangerous to overreact, jump to the opposite extreme and throw the baby out with the bathwater by rejecting kindness or any sort of emotional expression. Men shouldn’t be cold heartless Spartan robots, and I think that protecting the weak is a manly virtue (contra Neigh-bore). Certainly from a Christian point of view men are called to be “nice” (meant as in charitable, sympathetic, protective) and anyone who is familiar with the gospels should agree that there *is* a place for emotion (yes, even tears) for a Christian man. I see a lot of hoo-ah-ing by people on some blogs (that won’t be named) who seem to confuse manliness with being a brutish slavering gorilla.

  9. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2014/05/28 | Free Northerner

  10. Slumlord, I feel thoroughly blessed because everyone I’ve known well has looked beyond my imperfection. Most people act as though I’m able-bodied, even when they’re helping me. Sometimes, before I walk down a set of stairs, I’ll ask someone to take a crutch from the arm I’ll lean on the railing. He’ll do that, carry it to the end of the stairwell, and walk a few feet farther. In a cheerful tone of voice, I’ll say something like, “Don’t go too far. I need my golf club, ya know.” For me, the handicap is a mere inconvenience. It’s a property I have. CP is not, “who I am.” It’s not my identity.

    Our Blessed Lord gave me a wonderful gift when I vowed to be celibate, the ability to see people as just people, not as sex objects. I don’t even think about physical features many men look for when they’re hoping to find a girlfriend or a wife. Anyone who wanted to date me might have felt disappointed when she knew that romance didn’t interest me. But I’d be happy to try to be a true friend to her, just not a boyfriend.

    • Bill, that’s the best description of the grace of celibacy I’ve yet come across. It shows not only the value for your own being, but also how helpful it must be for a celibate priest both for his own personal being but also as a foundation of his ministry.

      • DeGaulle, thank you. Our Lord gets all the credit. I’m sure priests could teach me a lot about how to keep my vow. It’s easy to keep, but I need all the advice I can get.

    • Wow. I admire your strength, Bill McEnaney. Stories like yours show how material-reductionist garbage is just that, garbage.

      Are you a priest by any chance? How did you know that you were called to celibacy?

      • Svar, no, I’m a layman who learned a lot Our Lord taught me through my clinical depression and my plan to commit suicide. Barry McGuire wrote a wonderful Protestant song while I attended high school. Part of it said, “I walked a mile with pleasure. She chattered all the way, leavin’ me none the wiser for all she had to say. I walked a mile with sorrow. Never a word said she. But oh, the things I learned from her when sorrow walked with me.” Some people think there’s something wrong with their faith when they suffer. I even knew a youth group leader who thought something went wrong with his faith because he caught a cold. Why? Some evangelist preached that Christians don’t get sick.

        I’ve found that, although I’m no masochist, my suffering is a gift because Christ uses it to help other people, the holy souls in Purgatory, and me. Our Savior tells me to carry my cross and follow Him. If the cross doesn’t imply suffering, I don’t know what does. The great news is that besides what Jesus does with it, it’s almost easy to put up with when I bear it patiently. During the tough times, I look at a crucifix and remember that compared to God the Son’s agony, my pain is trivial at worst.

        If you go through a tough time, don’t tell yourself that God is punishing you. Remember that He loves you enough to trust you with a challenge He’ll use to help other people. Maybe you’ll meet them on earth. Maybe not. Either way, you can bet that, in Heaven, they’ll thank you. If they’re already there or in Purgatory, they’ll pray for you, too.

        After my saintly honorary brother Jake died in 2005, I prayed, “Dearest Lord, if you want me to get a Gregorian Mass set, 30 consecutive, daily Traditional Latin Masses, for the repose of his holy soul, please send me a courtesy check to pay the Mass stipend.” It came the next day. For me, $300 is lots of money. Still, compared to the heroic example my friend set for me, it’s nothing.

        I took my vow because I wanted to be a priest. After I did that, my sex drive lessened enough that my promise to God got easy to keep when most sexual temptations vanished. Sometimes I still wish I could join the Society of St. Pius X, but I know that God isn’t calling me to the priesthood. And I love to live like a scholarly, cloistered monk. If I joined a monastery, I’d need to leave my opera recordings out here in the world. For me, that would be awful because opera is my musical passion. But I need to learn to surrender anything God decides to take from me. I am, after all, only borrowing it from Him.

        Please, pray for me, everyone, if you find a free moment, because I need Our Lord tell me whether He wants me to write professionally.

      • You write operas? That’s amazing! I, as well as probably lots of the men here are interested in and appreciate opera. I would love to hear a piece of yours.

        God bless, sir, I will be sure to pray for you.

      • “If you go through a tough time, don’t tell yourself that God is punishing you. Remember that He loves you enough to trust you with a challenge He’ll use to help other people. Maybe you’ll meet them on earth. Maybe not. Either way, you can bet that, in Heaven, they’ll thank you. If they’re already there or in Purgatory, they’ll pray for you, too.”

        Thanks Bill. I actually went through a very tough time for the last three years. I was severely sick with a cancerous blood disorder. I had ups and downs and some moments I cursed God and I even renounced him but I couldn’t stay away. God, once you’ve promised yourself to him through baptism will not ever leave you alone.

      • Svar, thank you for your kind thoughts. Any strength I may have is a gift from God. Without his help, I would still feel angry about my CP.

  11. I am caught between agreeing almost 100% with this analysis, but on the other hand absolutely understanding all the counter-points that Franklin makes. The divided opinion I have reminds me exactly how I felt in reaction to the shooting/mass killing done by Anders Brevik. In that case, I was repulsed by the action of gunning down all those defenseless Norwegian teens, and the more I learned about Brevik the less I could sympathize with him – he appeared to me to be another social misfit with a narcissistic/delusional personality disorder. All the glorification of Zionism, the freemasonry, etc., and the idea that those kids were pro-Palestinian made me question if it was a Mossad operation to punish Norway for its anti-Israel stance. on the other hand, it was the next generation of cultural marxists being groomed by their parents of Norway’s race treasonous political elite. Vikernes War Comes to Europe basically states my exact view of the whole thing.

    Now with this case, in general I totally get the author’s conclusion – this kid felt entitled to the blonde ideal of the feminine prize that is worshipped by Jew hollywood – he was a maladapted spoiled brat, and blew a gasket when he realized his own standards were too high and unattainable. if the kid was an engineering or math student, and it was alike a revenge of the nerds thing, i’d have more empathy. Because the white race is being bred out of existence, the availability of these blondes is decreasing and it gives them more selective power as they are coveted by EVERY racial group, including Jews who are slithering in and picking up Shiksas with their successful tribalism. His antipathy towards blondes is clearly because they rejected him, so it was an obsessive love/hate thing. the kid just seems like a total weirdo/creep and had absolutely no charisma or attractive qualities beyond his physical appearance (from what i hear, haven’t actually looked at a picture of the hybrid).

    With all that said – I have come to actually despise American white women myself, speaking as a racialist. a lot of what Franklin said makes total sense and resonates. Henry’s comment hits the nail on the head “In saner times parents would give their daughters to proper suitors, that worked out better than 2014 America” – this is the biggest problem. Our culture has been destroyed and there is no communal help of families/social institutions to facilitate men finding a mate – it is total individualistic/lost in the wilderness scenario for white men, compared to all other non-white cultures that basically have a mechanism in place that encourages breeding within the group. Add to that, the fact that the kid was mixed, which usually leads to self-hate and alienation (the Virginia Tech shooting), and you have a recipe for disaster. Part of me actually cheers when these things happen, as tragic as they are – because it is the ripe fruit and chickens coming home to roost when you have a sick, dysgenic, totally fucked up cultural environment that young men are raised in America. It is nothing but isolation and alienation from childhood up for a white male, and if you are in an urban environment that usually translates to adaptation via wiggerdom; or if you are in a rich, yuppie/liberal land it is imitating spoiled Jew-produced Kardashian models of the decadent, soulless, materialistic, rootless void (talk about a perfect candidate for Armenians to take up the Islamic practice of honor killing). I guess the guy took out some other chinese/asians in a competitive assault (if i can’t have the blondes no one will); but the “valley” mentality of dumbed down hollywood influenced white girls with no cultural/racial identity sceaming in horror might be a good thing for our race. I think it might be a solution to the decadence we are facing. More terror to shake them out of their collective mental, spiritual, and psychological void they have been put into by the Master Subverters of Culture – and again, cannot blame everything on the Jew when it is white people who have swallowed the poison whole.

    Franklin – good for you man on getting a hot Mexican wife – there are so many millions of gorgeous Aryan/European pure Spanish/Mediterranean looking Hispanics out there, white nationalists need to get the Anglo-Wasp/Nordicism bug out of their ass and realize that there are many horizons of cultured, feminine, beautiful, intelligent women that are not polluted by Jew America’s disease – and this is also true of white looking Middle Eastern girls as well, which is another group usually dismissed out hand as “mud people” by ignorant, moronic American white nationalists when nothing could be further from the truth. the same goes for Turko-Slavic types like Albanian, Balkan, and Caucasoid (Armenian, Georgian, Chechen, etc.). this is why i can’t stand pop WN stormfront debates over who is white; minds need to be opened to the possibilities of good blood with beauty, elegance and grace that exist out there beyond the polluted spheres of Zogland.

    • I’ve said before (in comments sections on other posts) that I don’t entirely get the antipathy toward “American white women.” It’s not a secret that probably at least 90% of American women are unfit for dating, much less marriage (I doubt the proportions are much better in France or wherever else). So, like, don’t fixate on that 90%. Rodger is mostly right that blonde sorority girls are contemptible, so why in the world did he resent them for not sleeping with him?

      My own experiences dating Catholic women my age have been pretty uniformly positive, even though I haven’t married one yet — most of them wouldn’t have been good wives for me, but none of them would be bad wives full-stop. If you’re not a terrible guy, it’s not THAT hard these days to find a not-terrible woman.

      Hence I suspect the complaints are because there is exactly zero overlap between “not-terrible woman” and “woman who will sleep with you before marriage.”

      • 90%? Maybe if you lived in California, NYC, or DC. I recall you saying a while back you moved to Texas where I also live. I have found lots of girls to be “not terrible” and while I have been around a few sorority girls, I really have no interest in dealing with them and definitely don’t seek them out.

        I think it’s more like 60% are unfit to date or marry.

      • I grew up in and went to school not far from DC so maybe that has colored my expectations. At any rate, even if the majority of women are terrible, the proportion of not-terrible women is still greater than 0, and it is still virtually impossible to attract them romantically if you have nothing to offer as a man.

      • @ Henry

        You don’t see the cognitive dissonance in his being anti-Jewish and pro-Middle Eastern? Also, in his assumption that Franklin’s wife is pure Spanish/Med when very, very few Mexicans are pure of any race?

        Another thing about the blondes. The blondes Rodgers was eyeing were probably fake ones as well. Lots of fake blondes in Cali. Elsewhere too.

      • @Svar

        I am not anti anyone. The “blondes” he was complaining about were probably mostly fake or they were blonde but not the fake blonde color that she paraded around with. They got their orders from the entertainment media and so did he.

  12. The first step in the road to self improvement is a realization that you are the problem. It can be incredibly difficult to give up one’s delusions, but it must be done if one is to start on the road to a better you.

    For me it was getting physically fit, becoming a well read and more interesting as a person and most importantly losing my neediness. When I started approaching the ladies with confidence, I had no problems getting dates. The sad part of all of this was that it took me ten years to get to this state. My late teens and all of my 20s were a complete wasteland and there was nobody to show me the way.

    Another bit of advice that I would like to pass on is for men to learn how to drive women wild in bed. An woman’s orgasm releases hormones that will bond a woman to a man. If you want a long term relationship with a woman then this is a must do. Anything less and you’ll find your partner losing interest and maybe even filing for a divorce. With something like 75% of the divorces being initiated by women, this is an important consideration.

    The road can be long and hard, often very hard, but it is worth the effort.

    • @Omega

      There was nothing wrong with you dude, you grew up in post 60s America- that was the problem. In a proper society, which is possible if we want it, the broads will be working that hard to get you, not the other way around. Its’ happened before and will again. Under a proper patriarchal state enforcing structural alpha, open and unapologetic. Divorce? Sure honey, you’ll leave with whatever you came into it with and the kids are his, have fun living under the bridge, lol!

      Be well buddy.

  13. There are a lot of broken men and broken women in the world. The Sexual Revolution has guaranteed that a lot of children will come into this world and grow as strangers, in ambiguous and ill-defined relations to the people who surround them, with the State as the ultimate canopy. That cannot be salutatory

    Elliot Rodger was given everything material he ever wanted. When the Universe failed to deliver Monette Moio to him with the same lack of effort that he exerted to acquire everything else in his life, he lashed out like any spoiled child would do. A girlfriend would have exacerbated this condition, not alleviated it.

    There are a limited amount of Monette Moios in the world. There are certainly not enough to go around. More importantly, she is an agent in her own right, with her own free power of choice. She has her own battles to fight.

    What Prophet said about the father-shaped-hole resonated with me. I am a fatherless boy and my deficiencies as a man and as a father have infected my son.

    • That Moio chick has not much going on. No breasts. No guitar shape. No umph. Whatever, y’all can keep it. I’ll take the redhead chick from that Mad Men show or a pre-boob job Maria Grazia Cucinotta over that any day.

      Enough about that. The Sexual “Revolution” is to blame here. Don’t psychoanalyze Elliot, blame the “revolution” and whoever still supports it. Ride it.

      • Only at a trad-heavy PUA-friendly “orthodox” forum can you find spiritually edifying discussion such as this. Objectifying Rodger’s not-so-secret crush? Keep it up guys.

      • Yeah, please don’t mistake our toleration of them as friendliness toward them. I’m generally with Zippy in terms of my distaste for gamer/PUA agitprop. I’ve here appropriated (briefly, and then promptly discarded, hence my impatience with a.morphous below) one bit of their vocabulary because it was viscerally useful for the point I was trying to make.

      • Curio, this Henry fellow is a very new commenter. Do not paint the rest of us with the “PUA-friendly” brush, especially not the editors. We, as a group(I can’t speak for everyone but only from what I’ve seen from the majority of commenters and writers around these parts), do not have any respect for game or other bullshit pussy formulations that are reductionist, objectifying, and dehumanizing to both women and men.

      • Shhesh! Sorry guys, I didn’t mean to upset you all but I figured I’d comment on how un-special this Moio girl is. That was all. I did not advocate any game or anything like that. This kid is a product of his society. It told him that Moio girl is the ultimate woman, and it taught that to Moio as well. And enough already with this body type, they’re trying to make us all vegans.

  14. Marry, and you will regret it; don’t marry, you will also regret it; marry or don’t marry, you will regret it either way. Laugh at the world’s foolishness, you will regret it; weep over it, you will regret that too; laugh at the world’s foolishness or weep over it, you will regret it either way; laugh at the world’s foolishness or weep over it, you will regret both. Believe a woman, you will regret it; believe her not, you will also regret it; believe a woman or believe her not, you will regret it either way; believing a woman or not believing her, you will regret it both ways. Hang yourself, you will regret it; do not hang yourself, and you will regret that too; hang yourself or don’t hang yourself, you’ll regret it either way; whether you hang yourself or do not hang yourself, you will regret both. This, gentlemen, is the essence of all philosophy.

    Sorry to commit a hit-and-run Soren Kierkegaard quote, a terrible crime, I know, given how cryptic Kierkegaard is, and especially considering the fact that Kierkegaard wrote in several pseudonyms, each of them having conflicting viewpoints yet overlapping with his own so you never really know if it is really Kierkegaard speaking or one of alternate personas, really should be punishable by hanging by neck until death, if you ask me… but… I just had to. It was a whim.
    My apologies.

    • So what exactly is your solution? Even if all women turn into sluts doesn’t mean we should become little shits as well. We’re men, we have things to do and places to go and people to meet. It’s not all about getting laid or getting a girlfriend, this guy clearly had issues that were exacerbated by the civilizational decline.

      • My point Sir, is exactly that. The civilization is to blame, not this one kid. This girls is also a victim of 2014 America. The solution is top-down rule, enforced gender roles, open male-dominance, structural alpha and consequences. This girls is obviously not smart enough to make her own decisions and should not have been allowed to make any. she may however, have had a chance at being a good woman and is probably a nice person- but not smart.

  15. You people are weird.

    (a) I don’t see how every male can be an alpha male, by definition.

    (b) The competition for alpha rank strikes me as expressly contrary to the spirit of Christianity. Good luck following both Christ and Nietzsche.

    (c) If you spend your time writing for marginal people on a marginal blog, you probably aren’t an alpha male (except in your own little subworld, which is perfectly fine, but don’t get illusions).

    • @ amorphous

      Which people are weird? If you’re talking about the Christian game types I agree.

      a) Agree

      b) Agree except with the corollary that even non-Christian philosophers can inform us like Aristotle or Nietszche. We do believe in Natural Law theory.

      c) Who are you referring to? The Orthosphere or the gamers and WNs?

      Huh. Never thought I’d agree even half-way with amorphous on anything.

  16. Svar, oh, heavens no, I don’t write operas. I’m an opera buff who still needs to learn how to read music. I used to dream of singing two roles, Sarastro in Mozart’s Magic Flute and Iago in Verdi’s Otello. I can’t sing a note. But I love opera history and Oxford University Press’s Opera Quarterly. Some people tell me that my speaking voice belongs on the radio. Then my ears disagree when I hear it in a voicemail announcement. My only potential claim to fame is that I was the poster boy for the local Cerebral Palsy Telethon. Aha! There’s another gift to brag about. :) I used to do an excellent impression of Grover Monster from Sesame Street. ;)

  17. Now that you know I’m an opera freak, I need to share some wonderful singing by my favorite mezzo soprano, Elina Garanca. Here’s William Gomez’s Ave Maria sung in Spanish by a Latvian.

  18. The spirit of this post is truly base and ignoble. Someone who goes by the pseudonym “Proph” is strutting like a rooster and claiming to be a so-called “alpha” male.

    The idea of an “alpha male” is taken from observations of the animal realm, primarily monkeys. Alpha males in that setting are not males who have mates, they are males who aggressively kill, wound and otherwise intimidate other males and physically prevent those rival males from having sexual encounters with the females of the herd. Being an alpha male is more about one’s violent, dominating relations to other males than it is about having a female sex partner.

    Now I doubt that “Proph” has ever killed, wounded or even harmed or otherwise intimidated another man in his life and I’m certain he’s not lording it over a harem of females–I’m quite sure he has hands full trying to hold on to his one little chickadee. And I can’t say that I’m entirely disappointed, as I’m not an advocate for animalistic, barbaric behavior. Human civilization is ideally not an animalistic herd where so-called “alpha” males murder, maim and dominate other lesser “beta” males. It’s kinda the whole point of civilization to put a stop to those kinds of apish transactions.

    The proper designation for “Proph” isn’t so much “alpha” male as it is “immature” man. He’s the kind of pathetic fellow who thinks that being rude and having a girlfriend somehow vouchsafe his manhood. The last time I checked being a pseudonymous blogger for the “Orthosphere”–in fact until today I had always assumed it to be a sort of eccentric, high-church conservative website, not a “game” blog–isn’t exactly expressive of raw animalistic, studly masculinity.

    Again, I don’t regret that as I think the whole notion is positively dumb and embarrassing.

    • Hello Wade, welcome to the Orthosphere.

      Actually I don’t (especially) claim to be an alpha male. I don’t even think the alpha/beta distinction is terribly useful except as a somewhat more visceral proxy for masculine/effeminate. This is why I appropriate the alpha/beta distinction for one section (out of eight) of this post and then discard it — to segue into more useful, if somewhat less viscerally accessible, categories of thought. It is hardly an endorsement of “game,” which I basically detest to the extent that it claims to offer anything other than the sort of advice that fathers used to give their sons for generations (i.e., to the extent it embraces utilitarianism, nihilism, biodeterminism, etc.).

      It’s curious to me that the objections to this post so far have fixated almost entirely on that one section as if it were somehow central to my point, when it really isn’t. You could pretty much cut that section altogether and still arrive at the same conclusion.

      • Well, Proph, your polite response to my snarky comment embarrasses me. It would seem I owe you an apology.

        It appears that I overreacted to that one section, as you suggest. I apologize to you. Please forgive the impertinence and impropriety of my comment.

  19. Proph:

    Followed Free Northerner’s link here.

    This is good. Very good. It’s also pretty much what any PUA or any other manospherian with any knowledge at all of human nature would have told him.

    Very good work.

    • Not just PUAs etc. It’s pretty much what any man would have said to any kid in a situation like Rodger’s virtually everywhere and always prior to the disruptions of the 60′s.

      • One would hope so. A few other things men should pass on to their sons:

        – nobody owes you anything.
        –you will have to work your ass off for everything you get, and you’ll still get screwed over sometimes.
        –life ain’t fair. Ever. To anyone.
        –Your looks matter.
        –Most girls will not be attracted to you even when you are at your most self-actualized, your best conditioning, and functioning at your peak. That’s because it’s just not the way female to male attraction works.
        –Improve your social intelligence. Learn how to strike up conversations with different people. Get comfortable in all different kinds of social situations.
        –Learn a team sport and get competent in it.

  20. Pingback: Elliot Rodger’s Twisted World | Secular Patriarchy

  21. Blondes have become so iconic for female beauty that they attract all of the non-white rapist psychos. Bizzare. The curse of celebrity, I guess, but the rest of womankind wishes we had their problems.

    Anyway, I thought it was a good article, but the alpha/beta reference was ill-advised because that’s like a red flag to some of your readership.

    • Alte, you wish you had their problems, i.e., attracted all of the non-white rapist psychos? :p I’m a brunette supremacist myself.

    • No, I wish I was a beauty icon. LOL

      The psycho stuff is just the collateral cost of having guys lie down in the street and beg you to walk on them. That would be very practical if it rained. Save me from having to wear rubber boots, although I’d still need an umbrella.

      I do have to admit that I’m not exactly disappointed about the fact that the local Mohammedans think raping me would earn them negative points. Or that my daughter’s hair has darkened to an elegant chestnut. There’s no mass movement for gang-raping chestnut-haired girls, and I doubt there would ever be one. Nobody cares about brunettes with that sort of violent fanaticism.

      The hair-thing alone would help explain why Swedish rape statistics are so much higher than German or Italian ones. It’s bizarre to think that men feel such visceral lust for blond chicks that it would skew national crime statistics, but here we have a bonafide example and none of the male commenters seem surprised.

    • @ Alte

      Most blondes come from a bottle. They’re everywhere in Texas and I don’t get it. They’re really not that hard to get, but then again blondes like me for some reason but for all I know these blondes are actually brunettes. Either way who cares? Being obsessed to such a degree with a particular phenotype reeks of loserdom.

      Also, the rape statistics can be explained by both the type of immigration and the local culture. Germans are not the kind to grab their ankles at the invading Muslim and African hordes and neither are the Italians but the Swedes are disgustingly self-hating. The problem with being a self-hater is that everyone hates people who hate themselves because people with no self-respect incites contempt.

      @ Marissa

      I actually like girls with dark hair and blue eyes or redheads the best. I also like Mexican girls.

      • Hello, Svar. I’m glad to hear that you are doing better now. You were ill for like forever.

        “Most blondes come from a bottle.”

        Yes, of course, but as far as I can tell, bottle blondes are like the surgically-enhanced, the spray-tanned, and the heavily made-up: If you can see it and touch it, then it’s real. Men are turned off in theory, but turned on in reality. In fact, I think it’s like with breasts: men have come to prefer the substitute to the original.

        My daughter’s got coloring like Miranda Kerr, which I think is very pretty and striking. But I’m a minority of one. LOL

      • My point is that blondes have become so common that they’re not as striking as they would normally be. When everyone is a blonde, then blondes become less special and rare. It doesn’t really matter if a girl is a real blonde or a fake blonde as long as she looks good, it’s just hair.

        The reason why more women don’t dye their hair blonde is because it would either look incongruous(because they’re non-white, Semitic-loooking, or Med-looking) or because they look better in their normal coloring. I really don’t think most men put a premium on blondeness, it’s just not that rare anymore. Also, it’s unbelievably shallow to want blondeness over everything else and Elliot Rodgers was very shallow.

        “I’m glad to hear that you are doing better now. You were ill for like forever.”

        Thank you.

      • “I really don’t think most men put a premium on blondeness, it’s just not that rare anymore.”

        I don’t think the appeal was ever about rarity. Men, when surveyed, generally prefer blondes and always have — even in Britain and Germany, where you’re practically overrun with blondes. I’ve met men who prefer brunettes, but they’re in the minority and they appear to have no influence on popular culture. Even women like Beyoncé and Kim Kardashian lighten their hair now.

        Men do appear to simply have a thing for that particular hair color. I know so many white women who look awful with the peroxide number, but they all swear that they get much more male attention with it than without; that the effect is tangible. But, because we all know why they dye their hair (more male attention), then we can’t tell if men think blonde hair is so much hotter because of some aspect of the color or if they find it more attractive because it signals sexual availability.

        At any rate, I’ve had so many people suggest that I dye my hair blonde (you can imagine how ridiculous that would look) that I’d never do it out of sheer stubbornness. I’ll be the last brunette standing. LOL Makes me feel like such a rebel.

      • I think the reason why men overwhelmingly prefer blondes is because they’ve fetishized (similar to the way Asian women are). Don’t get me wrong, I love blondes just as much as any guy but I don’t see how any one could be obsessed with them the same way I don’t see how any one could be obsessed with Asian girls or any other type of female phenotype unless it’s been fetishized within the culture. Any ethnicity or phenotype that is presented as feminine or extremely sexual tend to be fetishized.

        A pretty girl is just a pretty girl.

      • That’s true, but I have a specific aversion to hair dye and colored contacts, and the like, because of the way our coloring reflects our ethnicity. There’s just something skeevy about wanting to look like something you’re not. Like the way all actresses end up with the same nose. It’s all so multi-culti.

        My daughter looks like a Germano-Slavic girl because that’s what she is, and I think that’s a good thing. Wearing rubber boots seems like a small price to pay for honoring your ancestors.

    • There’s truth to the whole “beauty icon” thing. It might explain why my mother sun tanned me towards honey brown skin and encouraged natural curly hair. In addition my face is alright and I’m slim.

  22. Pingback: This Week in Reaction | The Reactivity Place

  23. “You may regress into the security of childhood: “marrying” your pillow, taking stuffed animals out to dinner (in public!), dressing up as a magical pony or a figure from a favored video game (and not just on Halloween), or Photoshopping people into your pictures and publicly advertising them as your girlfriend.” Who does this???

  24. @Proph –

    My penny’s worth.

    This was an awful post, and a disgusting comment thread – which generates a low level visceral nausea verging on despair.

    Aside from encouraging nasty types; I find it extremely dismaying that even mainstream Christians seem unable to talk about this absolutely *vital* subject without falling into this kind of thing – variously cold biological analysis, social engineering talk, macho-posturing and ‘boasting’, puerile sniggering and the rest of it.

    In my experience online, it is only the CJCLDS which seems able to discuss the subject of modern sexuality without provoking disgust or despair – and indeed in a way that inspires positive warmth and hopefulness.

    This is nothing I wish to discuss or debate – but merely to share that my heart tells me something is wrong and rotten here.

      • Why the snark? Bruce Charlton has some valid criticisms about the nature of the thread, if not the article (I personally do not think Proph is doing what BC says he is). The way the neoreactionary and manosphere sites talk about sexuality and attractiveness is dehumanizing towards both men and women and reduces mankind to mere animalistic behaviors and base urges.

      • Because his comment was uncharitable, which struck me as hypocritical, and made me think, “Well, that’s five seconds of my life I’m not going to get back.”

        I demand back my penny.

      • This thread has been like a Rorsach test. Nobody is bothering to read, just showing up and telling us how worthless we are. Geez.

        Half of the comments are about the spiritually rewarding nature of celibacy, for goodness sake.

  25. I grew up from a naive nice guy nuclear family, so I can see now I was bound to fail. Yet I was born with attractive traits- intelligence, health, height, and some ambition. I did generate attraction passively- that is sometimes people, girls teased me. Guys treated me as I them, nicely. Even those who would bully others were kind of nice to me. I was always cautious, and I think others reciprocated. I was not sexual enough, I did not participate enough. I was a bit scared, and was biding my time, trying to be independent, not knowing what I needed. Then I discovered PUA and that, and I worked hard at the time. I could have gotten laid but I pulled back at the time I could have been successful. I didn’t close and lock it down. I failed to lock it down. Now I’m 32. I believe in hard work, but now I feel far from getting a girl for different reasons. I agree with everything said above in the article, yet my causes, which I love, are extremely difficult to achieve. I agree women don’t like complainers. My causes are for my folk and people- so against the moral zeitgeist at the time. That’s my excuse. I can’t abandon history and my people and race- my views are so non grata, so nationalist, I feel I have to lead a double life. I want a girlfriend. The women want men who are enfranchised. If I abandoned my love of my people and truth of history, my europeans, I could maybe ‘just be positive and live in the present’ while the race is destroyed, and then get a girlfriend but it would be hollow. Also I am studying now. It’s hard to do it all at once. I am working and studying. I feel like a machine. It is hard to build a social circle with all this on my plate, but it is necessary to have financial independence. I don’t masturbate. I give all my life energy to my purposes, and my needs, and my thoughts. I have great tasks ahead of me, if only for launching my career in public accounting, meanwhile doing factory and construction work. I feel in many ways more a man than ever. but I have little time to succeed and lots of liabilities. This is my position, and we are all in a position, and that position in life is important for our success- not for attractiveness necessarily but for our ability to maintain a certain state of mind, or for logistical reasons of owning our own house or space or whatever- having a friend circle that enables success with women. Now I am not about making excuses. I am about identifying causes, but at the end of the day, or the end of the paragraph, I will explain how there are others who are in my boat or similar waters who can be and have been successful. I am not about griping or complaining as an end in itself, but as a means to working out the problems and arriving at a solution. My balls are full of semen and seed that is putting pressure on me to be successful and reproductive, at the expense of those who would see our lives ruined and fertility rates decline and don’t want to see happy nuclear families with the father at the center. I have to find people who share my values or take those who don’t share my views, and help them see the way I see, if I can, if they are open. I have been on a meandering journey. I realize, especially as one ages, and more maturity and success is expected of one, that those men who are enfranchised, a part of a system, are the most attractive. It turns out we have a sick or hostile system in our so called white countries, (and as long as I take up this cause in love, for its own sake, as a weight to carry) it will be a love-liability unless I can find a fellow nationalist woman. I am working to be enfranchised. I am working to carry my own weight, as a worker in the world, and a leader when necessary. I don’t feel entitled to anything special, any special privileges or sex- and yet a different form of entitlement is actually a turn on to women. I’m trying to resist the one and adopt the other- it’s tricky full of gray area. I realize as a maturing man that so much of life is ambiguous- you cannot follow fixed principles because they depend on circumstances. If you can follow fixed ideas- like work hard, or be confident- they are so vague and self-axiomatic as to be valueless. I find when I complain to other men- who are not machines, they understand. I can dump on men without my attractiveness being reduced and having it bite me back or set me back, whereas if I do this to women- which causes joy for neither of us anyway- it always bites me back and harms me. That’s amazing- how even men who are jerks or dicks are more understanding than even women who seem nice. I guess we men need our male space and spheres and women need theirs. That’s probably the worst thing feminism did, is integrate all spaces almost for men and women. men can more easily be masculine when we have traditional masculine jobs and associate for a time only with other men- distance makes the heart of man restore itself to manliness, whereas constant association with women especially for the beta insecure man will make him conform to femininity. Money doesn’t care about gender health- it only cares about return on its value, so this is a pressure in the corporate world. Women maybe need their space to restore their femininity. We shouldn’t be hostile to each other but we are. Those women who spy on men’s private conversations and peep and judge them and want to shut them down are doing a great disservice to their own interests and doing something very injurious. Men should be having conversations among themselves full of raw feelings, which are not intended for the ears of womenfolk or kinder (kids). If they hear them they might get scared, and then get political. There are so many canards out there causing havok with progress or sanity or societal health. Combine this lack of real male space with lack of real male space in one’s own exclusive ethnic group (esp if you’re white). The reason I bring this up is because this was the norm for all of human history and is the environment and conditions in which our dna evolved and emerged. So you all the sudden change our environment to not match our dna and what do you expect, health and wonderfulness? Then you have the paid know it alls, who can spin everything or justify anything, straining at a gnat while perscribing solutions ignoring key assumptions or people’s feelings. Then you have men playing into their stereotypes of being unfeeling and so on, repressing their feelings, becoming a machine. I do what I have to ,but every man, especially white men, have a natural right and a duty to seek power for themselves, success, space, territory, whatever works. Any system or society or government or foundation or entity or interest or news corp or university or professor or psychiatrist or self-help group or peer group or religion or church or father or mother or uncle or aunt or anyone or anything else for that matter which denies one these natural prerogatives is simply doing harm. It is actually hard enough to gain and keep wealth and power and influence and space and territory and respect and standing in this world when one IS free in the mind that we need no more handicapps by not being free in the mind, which is what the sermon on the mount taken seriously is- a major handicapp of the mind which I have subscribed to for many periods of my life (and when I thought I was secure and would be on top, when I was most self-deluded about my success and future success- living in my grandparens shadown in terms of monetary endowment). Now I see how things aren’t so rosy and just so. I would not like to be a martyr for being the sake of a martyr. I’d rather be a successful rich person although not at the expense of my feelings or free spirited nature among other things, but if I was forced in a position of being a martyr, it would be for my people and not for some religious ideology from ancient judea that makes me giddy. in the end it was giddyness that killed me. Giddyness that my father passed on to me- my father, who is not the most passionate or decisive make things happen man. He is an aquiescer, and let me tell you how tough it can be to break out of this frame, and learn to be a dick. Do unto others is the constant message one hears. Repeat it as a mantra until it sinks in to the psyche. There is only one race, the human race. Repeat this until it rots the mind. And I don’t hate- that’s a canard- the great canard of hate. Oh my race ,you’d be amazed to know I walk the park with a burkino faso man, and dated a jewisih lady and associate with all races, and treat them with respect, so I only want the same for my own people, but it’s a long strange process of healing that has to happen. It was giddyiness, that locked me in my nice guy revenge fantasy state of mind. now I am healthy I can assure you. I can assure you I will not attack any woman- and the more we can get to the roots of the issue, the least likely I am to be violent- although I may say things which are sketchy). I can own them. The more natural I can be, regardless of whether I hook up, the more power I can feel internally. It is religion and ideology that make me unnatural. Now I want to tell the world. It is hard if not impossible to know what’s true and right- but it is easy to say what’s false. Religion or abrahamic religion anyway is false. democracy as an idol is false and egalitarianism is another idol. Why do we bow and worship idols? This has gotten us in serious trouble as individuals and groups. why are these idols being taught to our children. I’d love a son and daughter and I’m just thinking, if i sent them to public schools, how I’d have to oversee their education partly to minimize the effect of it. As far as i’m concerned, we need enough education to fit in, but mostly we need life training in skills for self-advancement and preservation. We hardly need liberal arts, in college or in high school. We need technical skills and critical thinking skills- which most university students even lack these days, as they fall into debt learning dogmas (idols). But I find I can attract women if I ignore this level- I can be biologically or unconsciously attractive, with my freedom and the standing I achieve and self-confidence by my works, which make my wallet fatter and my head held higher- but if I share my thoughts, they are turned off, because I am in the wrong time and wrong place for them, in the wrong moral zeitgeist. I have to take it slow if at all with the people I love, because women can turn off their physical attraction with their minds- if a person is mentally disagreeable- (a racist, etc). because human imaginations are powerful faculties that can terrify a person or make him giddy and excited and behaving irrationally. just as the bible the book of man’s handwriting warned against the kings of israel taking foreign wives who introduce them to foreign gods- cause yahweh was a very jealous and insecure god!) so the women today and of all ages- many of them at least but not all, but many we’ll run into, want to be the arbitrers of the morality of the day- and punish us by withdrawing if we do not conform to their standards- or maybe they’re just withdrawing to protect themselves, or maybe it’s because we don’t sound enfranchised, and they are value investors. I don’t know. But de facto it’s like that. You can think it but don’t say it. If you don’t SAY anything unPC, they don’t know where you stand, because they can’t read minds. THEY CAN”T READ MINDS, and most people can’t either. Some can cold read, but that’s different. it’s all a game of poker, to make you neurotic.

    man gains sexual power by being self-condident and needed. How does one gain this confidence, or fake it, when he has nothing? I dno’t know but my strategy is to just keep too busy to feel self-pity or alone. The one time I permit myself to feel sad or alone is as I”m falling asleep at the end of a busy day- otherwise no no no no no I donnt go there. I do some lifting some reading for future income generating ability, some working, whatever it takes. I am at the mercy of my drives, my awareness, my karma, my friendcircles and situation, the universe or destiny. People say I should masturbate, but I have been given powers from not doing so in almost a year- powers of greater pain tolerance, brain opening, So far if not good, not bad. Anyway I am committed. Transfer the energy away from my penis itself and the pleasure seeking nature of that organ of trouble to the balls, the testostoner area. Too much pleasure is not good, definitely a trap- that makes you soft. I’m not seeking dominance at this point becaus I realize what a facade that is, an impossible illusion, but self- worth and value to employers, society a girl, by learning skills and doing what I desire. I know what it feels like to be marginalized and hated and ignored and also rejected as a lover in a split second as well as over time. I know what it’s like to experience regret- at both my mistakes and errors as well as things I did that Ithink I should have. I know what it’s like to feel regret and shame and confusion and bewilderment and grief and sorrow and rage and anger and helplessness and despair. I still have all those feelings, but one thing that is different now is that I have energy, and I’m opening the pandoras box with that energy, and I have a will to work. A will to drive a loader, and operate a backhoe- these are dreams and ambitions of mine, to work an oil rig, to work and save and make a down payment on a house- maybe some day own my own corporation or own shares in one, and even a controlling interest. Beware anyone who would enframe you in their net of assumptions and presuppositions, as our legal system does. As far as I am concerned, I see myself as a sovereign, and if anyone tries to enframe me, shame on me if I don’t see it and if I do and I can’t resist, then they get me without my consent, because we men don’ thave to give our consent to anybody either. It’s not as if we are super powerful, that women only give their consent or not, and we men have a duty which overrides our ability to consent or refuse. No, we have feelings and needs too, and we may not necessarily be entitled to a woman’s body or women in general, we are entitled to consent to certain modes of behavior, or not, or should be able to consent or refuse to our bodies being used as force against other nations, like germany, or the south, or our taxdollars the fruits of our labor itself, to feed africans, to support israel, to wage war against iran and germany and japan (even if they provoked it). So what’s fair is fair on all ends, otherwise the system is clearly in male fide, in bad faith and it is like a form of rape in the sense of use of force or co-ercion. it pays to be legally savvy as well as innocent. It’s like that rapper- I’ve got 99 problems but a girl is not one. That’s my life. As much as I want a girl, romance and passion, or many girls, I do not want ones who cause me more grief and problems than they solve. It’s sad that the girls today are in some ways not like those of my foremothers or of other nations in europe and elsewhere, but I have to be the man that brings out the best woman in them. I have to not be so giddy so easily and more able to be a dick and a jerk- when in reality those are just slander words like racist and so on. oftne the dicks and jerks are just ones with superior perception- begotten from experience or a good father or both, from early successes. There is nothing that breeds success like experience and it can spiral or soar like a rocket. Work your way into the flow. use the energy you’d otherwise use by crying, but cry when you need to, and then man up and get to work. the harder I work the luckier I get.

    • Phew! I made it all the way through. I hope this isn’t just spam.

      I can’t add anything about manliness, but I can gently point out that I know many desirable nationalistic/ethnic-minded women, but few who are atheists. That is a rather explosive combination, anyway, that nature seems to suppress, and what is an ethnicity without its religion?

    • Stop talking about reproduction rates and go for the real thing. There is no time to wait, I think 32 is more then enough already. A future wife will not fall from the sky. You need to commit a lot of work and time to actively search for one. Multiple tries will be necessary, a lot of time is needed in knowing a person … so that’s why I recommend starting immediately.

      And you don’t need a wife which agrees with you 100% on everything, you need a wife which will give you children, will take care of them and will stand by you in hard moments. I am 28 and I have a good wife and a child. We are working on the second…

  26. @Svar: Right. Agree.

    “Awful post?” I personally don’t think so. Actually, I thought it quite good – very compatible in the main with the way I deal with these social misfits on occasion (although I *generally* don’t make the alpha-beta distinction in such interactions).

    “Disgusting comment thread?” Well, yes … and no. I wouldn’t say the entire thread is disgusting, or even the bulk of it for that matter. A number of commenters have made very valid points that are perfectly compatible with Christian ethics as far as I can tell. Also, Proph made an excellent point (again, in *my* estimation) in an above comment saying, in effect, that he has said nothing more in the post than virtually all pre-60s revolution men would have said to the likes of Mr. Rodger in their day.

    As far as the LDS preference goes, well, that’s not all that surprising coming from Mr. Charlton, right? I mean, we all are more comfortable (and more attuned to) conversing with people who think and act more like us and all that, no?

    • “Awful post?” I personally don’t think so. Actually, I thought it quite good – very compatible in the main with the way I deal with these social misfits on occasion (although I *generally* don’t make the alpha-beta distinction in such interactions).

      I agree with you, but that wasn’t my point. I’m of the opinion that BC is doing what many have done on this thread and jumped down Proph’s back when they saw the words “alpha” and “beta” without actually reading what he was saying.

      My point was that the way Alte disrespected Mr. Charlton was completely unnecessary and unwarranted and did nothing to add to the thread. BC is quite influential and his writings on Tolkien have helped me quite a bit in my intellectual and spiritual formation.

      “Disgusting comment thread?” Well, yes … and no. I wouldn’t say the entire thread is disgusting, or even the bulk of it for that matter. A number of commenters have made very valid points that are perfectly compatible with Christian ethics as far as I can tell. Also, Proph made an excellent point (again, in *my* estimation) in an above comment saying, in effect, that he has said nothing more in the post than virtually all pre-60s revolution men would have said to the likes of Mr. Rodger in their day.

      Well, I agree with BC on this because of all the loonies that flooded the thread from MRA and PUA types to white nationalist types. You are right that the entire thread is not disgusting, but I suppose what bothers most regular readers is that there are more crazies on the thread than is usual.

      As far as the LDS preference goes, well, that’s not all that surprising coming from Mr. Charlton, right? I mean, we all are more comfortable (and more attuned to) conversing with people who think and act more like us and all that, no?

      Bruce Charlton is not a Mormon. He’s an atheist convert to Eastern Orthodoxy. I think he just studies the Mormons as a way to find out what we Christians should do. I personally think it’s best to not have anything to do with the Mormons because they are basically 1800′s Scientologists and their beliefs freak me out but whatever, if Mr. Charlton finds something that we can use from them, then why not? I personally prefer to mine for ideas from pagans, Jews, and certain freethinker-types when I go beyond the bounds of Christianity.

      • Svar,

        No Alte’s response to Charlton’s drivel was absolutely appropriate – I for one am glad I am not the only one responding this time too. Svar perhaps you are not familiar with Charlton’s routine of slamming of the Catholic Church in favor of an Americanist fantasy cult? He is not a Christian and certainly not a traditionalist. The fact that he is given a platform here is a real shame. It is indicative of complete lack of intellectual seriousness. Of course I will likely get censured for this comment but I was on record above of not being particularly not supportive of PUAs or whatever.

        When people like Charlton and Vox Day are considered reactionary “Christian traditionalists” one comes to the realization that “Christian traditionalism” is an empty concept.

        That’s just my penny’s worth.

      • Svar perhaps you are not familiar with Charlton’s routine of slamming of the Catholic Church in favor of an Americanist fantasy cult?

        No, I am not at all aware of this. I am aware of his older material talking about Tolkien’s mythos in terms of the Christian themes and such within them.

        When people like Charlton and Vox Day are considered reactionary “Christian traditionalists” one comes to the realization that “Christian traditionalism” is an empty concept.

        Vox Day is a heretic in that he does not believe in Trinitarianism and the Omniscence of God. Is there any proof that Charlton is a heretic? As in does he actually believe in the tenets of the LDS? Does he truly believe in Mormonism because I thought that he’s an Eastern Orthodox Christian? My belief was that Charlton was overly sympathetic to the LDS due to their outward morality but didn’t believe in the tenets. I could be wrong of course.

        I will say this, saying that the LDS is better when it comes to sexuality is ironic (I had no clue what “CJCLDS” when I first read his comment). It started out as the cult of perverts and bigamists and the entire theology was based around sick desires.

        I mean, I don’t know what to say. Bonald believes that Mormons are Christians even though he is definitely a Christian traditionalist. I don’t agree with either but I just ignore these statements due to the things they’ve said that actually do make sense.

      • Svar, you mentioned having been away due to illness, so let me say that it is good to see you back and well. I believe Charlton has shifted his position over the past few years from “Mere Christianity” to Orthodoxy to now Mormonism. You can search his blog archives and see this transformation. To be honest though, I didn’t think much of him even during his “Orthodox” phase.

        Mormons because they basically 1800′s Scientologists and their beliefs freak me out but whatever

        I agree. They’re also pro-abortion. They’ve attacked the Catholic Church on here before especially to the extent the Catholics on here don’t accept Americanism.

        I like and respect Bonald, but he made a major misstep in his assessment of the LDS.

      • I’m disappointed to hear that. I used to be a regular reader of Charlton back in 09′-10′ which I am guessing was his Mere Christianity phase because that’s when he posted lots of stuff by C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, and G.K. Chesterton. It was these writings, especially that of Tolkien that helped me move from Evola, Mishima, and Nietszche to Christ.

        I know that in modern times we’re supposed to at least pretend that we respect other religions, but I’ll be honest. I hold pre-Christian religions(Paganism and Biblical/Orthodox Judaism) in high regard and believe that all pre-Christian religions have elements of the Truth but Christ is the ultimate Truth. With that all being said, I have little regard for post-Christian religions because they’re essentially ripoffs of Christianity but warped beyond all recognition. The pagans and Jews have an excuse for not being Christian because they didn’t have Christ. What’s the excuse of a Muslim? Or a Mormon? Or a Christian Scientist? Or a Jehovah’s Witness? Or a Liberal? Unlike the old faiths, these Christianity based heretical cults don’t even have admirable deities or even a decent intellectual foundation. The Catholic Church needs Aristotle and St. Paul but it has no need for Mohammed, Joseph Smith, or Marcuse.

        Just goes to show that heresy moves you farther from the Church than being a pagan or Jew ever will. Atleast the latter two order themselves to the Natural Law. Never take anything a conman says seriously.

      • Oh, I was wondering what the CCJLDSXVZ acronym was about. Did he seriously come on here and preach the superiority of Mormonism? I’m absolutely stunned.

        This thread did bring out the crazies and trolls a bit, but that tends to happen whenever you write something that is picked up on by people with an ax to grind. I got swamped once after posting my daily housekeeping schedule, which apparently shocked a lot of readers with it’s emphasis on housekeeping, child-rearing, prayer, and catering to my husband. LOL Remember how they all went ballistic, Svar?

      • “Did he seriously come on here and preach the superiority of Mormonism?”

        Only to the extent, in his above-comment, that he believes Mormonism deals with “modern sexuality” (by which I suppose he means the chaos and dysfunction the so called sexual revolution has brought us) better than Christianity does.

        “CJCLDS” looks like some sort of roman numeral at first glance. I was even thrown by it initially when I read Charlton’s comment above. Which is why I opted for the shortened, more common “LDS” version that most of us have come to recognize.

        I wonder, though, whether using the longer version has some sort of underlying meaning within the LDS church and to those who embrace its teachings? Hmm.

  27. Pingback: Notes from the gender wars. [quotage] | Dark Brightness

  28. Can’t say I disagree with that.

    Once upon a time my family was visited by a (male) CPS worker following up on an anonymous call made by a neighbor “concerned” that our children weren’t attending the local public school – you know, “all children are entitled to a *public* education” and all that. Anyway …

    At one point in the conversation (after we got a few points settled outside before I allowed him in my house), the guy asks “Can I ask a question?: why do you homeschool your children?” My answer was exactly this: “The short of it is for religious reasons; the longer version would take a month to explain to you, and we don’t have a month.” (Yes, I was being a bit snarky with him given that I wasn’t exactly happy about his visit, and certainly not his accusatory tone initially, to begin with.) He then asks “By “religious reasons” do you mean Christianity?” To which I replied (again, snarkily, since I’m still rather perturbed by his mere presence in my home), “Is there any other kind?” ha, ha. “Not as far as I’m concerned” says he. Glad we got that settled.

    “Mildly heretical” is probably putting it, well, mildly. :-)

  29. Okay, I suppose it’s way late in the thread for me to say my piece….

    As someone who falls peripherally into the target audience of this post, and who has friends that fall squarely into it, the end result felt like a well-intentioned admonition that misses the mark. I would not give this to any of my “beta” friends to read, not even the ones who cross-dress as ‘magical girls’, because it wouldn’t do them any good.

    The issue is that, on the one hand, there is the narcissistic beta who thinks the world revolves around him, and whatever petty virtue he has in his own eyes supposedly means he “deserves” girls, success, or whatever else. That kind of person indeed needs to be reminded that Pride is the sin of Satan. On the other hand, there is also the self-hating beta who thinks he doesn’t deserve anything and thinks he isn’t able to strive for anything. This is more the sin of sloth, and dishonesty in refusing to look at a million little things that you not only can change, but are obligated to, regardless of whether you will get anything out of it. However, yelling at this type of beta will only feed his unconstructive self-disgust complex.

    The honest brunt of the message (that your “nice guy” dilemma is the result of objective sins you are committing, which you should repent), is lost beneath the focus on masculinity. The problem is that masculinity (much like “niceness”) is not a theological virtue, but at most a prudential one, nor is lack of masculinity necessarily a sin. (The sloth, lust, and pride that led to a lack of masculinity may be sins.) Likewise, narcissism and Pride, or sloth and dishonesty, are not issues of masculinity, but rather issues of humanity.

    When you are addressing a variety of dysfunctional people (“bronies” or whoever), some of whom are so far gone as to no longer want to be masculine, explaining to them how to be masculine (rather than virtuous — there’s an etymological irony for you), or that they should want something other than they currently want, is a dead end. You would rather focus on something they do want — which is that they want to think of themselves as decent people, and the way to do that is not to lie to themselves that they are decent people (which, thank God, they frequently do unsuccessfully), but to actually make an effort in that direction, repent actual and subtle sins that prevent them from getting anywhere, and see where that leads them, without presuming that God will immediately shower them with blessings for bothering to show up to the game of life.

    Ultimately, if I had to choose between arbitrary and artificial extremes, masculinity without decency, or decency without masculinity, I will take the latter.

    • That made sense, but is predicated on the false idea that masculinity is a virtue-neutral concept, rather than the state of mastering the masculine virtues (fortitude and continence, for example, as opposed to obedience and chastity). That is not to say that we should not all aspire to master all of the virtues, both masculine and feminine, but that our attractiveness to the opposite sex depends primarily upon our mastery of the virtues common to the ideal of our sex.

      • I thought I knew what you meant when you said continence and chastity, but then I looked in the Catholic Encyclopedia, and I’m now confused:

        http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04330b.htm — continence
        http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03637d.htm — chastity

        By ‘continence’, the Catholic encyclopedia means total celibacy (as practiced by Catholic clergy), and by ‘chastity’ the Catholic encyclopedia means the ordering of the sexual faculty to its proper end (whether this is done through marriage or through celibacy).

        What did you mean by these words when you said ‘continence’ was a masculine virtue, whereas ‘chastity’ was a feminine virtue?

        But anyhow, I agree with your major point, that there are certain virtues which are considered essential to function as a man, and certain virtues which are considered essential to function as a woman; which does not mean that a man or a woman cannot display a combination of masculine and feminine virtues (or that people can exist who are fine as human beings, but don’t amount to much as men or women). And yet, I agree that this also does not change the fact that, if a man wants primarily to attract women, lacking non-gender-specific virtues such as humility is not necessarily an obstacle, but lacking masculine virtues is a crippling obstacle.

        (I don’t necessarily agree that masculinity, at least how the word is used, necessarily equates to masculine virtues and nothing else. For instance, it was considered masculine at one point for aristocratic men to demand satisfaction for insults in the form of a duel. The Church was justifiably opposed to this convention.

        Likewise, Roissy could be considered masculine but not virtuous. You could also plausibly do some kind of argument or play of words and say there’s something subtly effeminate about Roissy, and most seducers of that ilk, but then it’s certainly not the kind of effeminacy that repulses women.)

        The problem I see is that virtues, taken individually — particularly the prudential ones that have to do with functioning in the world — are not a safeguard against sin, but can in fact enable a deeper fall, if directed to the improper end. (We might say that Satan started out with all the virtues except humility.) That means that, for a thoroughly dysfunctional man with all kinds of problems, starting out by focusing on the characteristic masculine virtues is not always a good idea. Even if the initial goal is to attract women. In fact, focusing too much on this goal is itself part of the problem.

        Consider my case: I am gradually altering my habits and demeanour in a way that causes me to become more attractive to women. This is an important thing to do, but not the most important thing. This is also a process that I started before I became a Christian. That this progress has taken so long to start showing appreciable results (only until after I became a believer, enough to consider certain conduct irrevocably out of bounds) is in fact providential, since otherwise I could easily have been tempted into fornication. It is sobering, therefore, to observe that it was not by any virtue of mine that I was prevented from this.

    • This seems like a money quote:

      “This is why the drive to eliminate masculine and feminine personalities must be resisted. An androgynous person would lack both the male and female capacity for intimacy. A man who sacrifices masculine virtue does not thereby acquire feminine virtue. Nor does a woman gain masculine virtue by losing her femininity. An effeminate man is not maternal, and a tomboyish woman is not paternal.”

      I basically agree with this, with the caveat that the term “androgynous” can refer to two completely unrelated things.

      There is androgyny in terms of eliminating any set of gender-characteristic traits (in the name of equality or whatever), in the process diminishing a person’s very humanity (humanity was created male and female, and it certainly can’t be neither of those things). Then there is androgyny in the sense of a person having both masculine and feminine virtues / traits, to the extent that this is possible. These are about as opposite in terms of ideals as you could imagine.

      (That Bonald has to specify that an effeminate man is not maternal, speaks to the fact that a man being maternal would be a positive good, just not one that should take priority over his being a man. Arguing that it is bad for a man to be maternal would be a far harder undertaking.)

      • I think what he’s getting at is that an effeminate man can not be maternal, but a masculine man can possess feminine virtues. Jesus being the most obvious example of this. He possessed all of the masculine virtues and all of the feminine ones, but he was neither effeminate (feminine affectation, as with a transexual) nor macho (masculine affectation, as with a PUA).

        I think the confusion (and rejection) of masculinity-for-men arrives for the same reason that I used to reject feminity-for-women: a limited understanding of the broad range of virtues applicable to one’s sex. Equating the affectation for the substance, in other words, and then rejecting the latter.

        I used to think “feminine” meant “weak, stupid, and simpering”, but the Virgin was extremely feminine and was none of those things. On the other hand, there were feminine virtues I didn’t want to cultivate because they didn’t come easily to me (and still don’t). The temptation to abandon them and concentrate on the “easier” masculine ones was great, but the wrong choice because it would be an abandonment of my God-given nature.

  30. The thread is interesting and even the hateful comments at least seem heartfelt, which is a sure sight better than the polite lies, extensive energy focused on minutiae, pedantry, and 7-layer posting drama of Blue Pill era, some of which you may still remember, and be glad to be free of.

    What’s missing is what Phi seems to have hit on:

    ” One of the qualities that sexual predators allegedly look for in potential victims is social isolation. I don’t claim to know how many women are actually isolated socially (at least, women the sight of whom any level of intoxication would induce me to think, “Mmm, sexual assault . . .” YMMV.) But unfortunately, the program was so focused on scoring points against feminist’s enemies that it missed the obvious point: loneliness and despair are terrible places to abandon people, yet all too commonly this is exactly where they get abandoned.

    Steve writes, “Maybe they [women] could kinda tell.” Sorry, Steve, but I’m calling bullsh!t on this one. The prisons are full of convicted serial killers getting sacks of love letters. Women don’t reject psychopathy and narcissism. Women reject weakness, and it is weakness that every aspect of Elliot’s sorry life broadcast to the world. It is weakness that got him picked on by his roommates and dismissed by total strangers. And it was the aura of weakness that his orgy of violence ultimately sought to dispel.

    So, to hell with “natural”. If you want to combat sexual assault (and mass murder), practice virtue instead. Expand the circle, don’t constrict it. If you are female, use your social standing to include that friendless girl in the group, not exclude her. If you male, use your charisma to invite that awkward boy in, not bully him away. Would this have made a difference in Elliot’s case? Probably not; Elliot’s was a particularly difficult case. But it sure beats another round of whining about guns/misogyny/movies/FPSGs. Because that definitely won’t work.”

    To paraphrase Chesterton, the appeal to naturalism is like the appeal to evolution, a thing that only works on asleep and half-asleep things going along easily predictable currents. To practice virtue is to start a revolution, for it wakes you up to the reality of the world, and allows you to go off the predicted script, and pull others away from the path to destruction.

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